Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

proposed legislation in scotland - licensed saunas and legalised prostitution

409 replies

weeonion · 30/11/2015 12:32

A consultation is currently happening in Scotland to make charges to the laws around prostitution, brothel keeping and pimping. No matter what you think - it would be good to have your voice, experiences and opinions heard in this. They have just extended the deadline to the 8th December so if time has been an issue for you - you now have another week!

Responses prepared electronically should be sent by e-mail to:
[email protected]
Responses prepared in hard copy should be sent by post to:
Jean Urquhart MSP
Room M3.20
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
You may also contact Jean Urquart’s office by telephone on (0131) 348 5052

OP posts:
HirplesWithHaggis · 05/12/2015 21:21

I don't see how you can say that Jean hasn't spoken with exited sex workers and those who work with them etc, when this consultation is clearly open to all. Confused

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 21:15

So you are saying JQ's proposals aren't necessary?

Original poster
weeonion · 05/12/2015 21:14

UBK - There would also be larger licensed brothels.

Emma - where are women being arrested in Scotland? Links please.

Problems from punters - I was referring to new Zealand in that point and problems were nuisance behaviour, approaching women not in prostitution and large numbers coming and going over 24 hrs.

I am responding to your points. You gonna respond to mine?

OP posts:
emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 21:00

You're right. Let's keep raiding brothels and arresting the women who work there and confiscating whatever cash and phones they have on them. JQ's proposal isn't valid because she only consults pimps and traffickers. And anyone who supports JQ must also consult with pimps and traffickers. Or the "pimp lobby" as I keep reading on here.

rolls eyes

Ubik1 · 05/12/2015 20:58

Hmm I cannot see them allowing brothers eithout a licensing system. Scotland loves licensing stuff

Ubik1 · 05/12/2015 20:56

Um

Scotland is a bit more than a wasteland but putting your ignorance aside, I was talking about increased sex traffic from the republic.
People travel over from NI daily for work, to study and for recreation. Scotland and NI are very close.
I was pondering whether the NI legislation will lead to a rise in sex tourism especially if Holyrood went for the option outlined in the paper.

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:56

" but more the punters causing problems "

Care to expand on what problems you think punters create?

Original poster
weeonion · 05/12/2015 20:55

Emmawinkl- the last i read, the women selling sex were taken in for questioning but have not been charged. Do you have a link to something showing they were charged??

OP posts:
Original poster
weeonion · 05/12/2015 20:53

Ubik - it would be legal to have smaller brothels with up to 4 people selling sex at a given time. Those 4 people can change so you could have a number of Shifts in a day. " They don't have to apply for a license and I the new Zealand model is replicated - they aren't registered either. There are no grounds to oppose them.
This has been an issue in new Zealand in communities and some municipalities are challenging this.

The problem is not those selling sex in these circumstances but more the punters causing problems but there is no legal restrictions on them.

OP posts:
emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:48

"Am I right that NI is about the criminalise the purchase of sex"

That's right, NI implemented the "swedish model" this summer. Since then 1 client and 4 sexworkers have been arrested. (The sexworkers were arrested for- you guessed it- working together.)

"scotland is having to respond as we may see an increase in sex tourism"

Even with legal brothels, I don't think many people are going to drive all the way to Scotland (which is for the most part one big wasteland with few people and lots of sheep) past huge cities like Newcastle and Manchester.

Original poster
weeonion · 05/12/2015 20:47

Museummum - there is a harm reduction report for last year in Edinburgh which shows what clinical staff, front line workers and services think of the system in Edinburgh and what they are supporting the women with. I agree with you that they are a key voice here and their opinion is hugely important. They were not consulted during the writing up of the current proposals.
They did respond to previous consultations however and clearly said that they saw it as violence and exploitation.

OP posts:
Ubik1 · 05/12/2015 20:45

I would be very unhappy if a brothel
Opened up In my close. People coming Bd going all day, all the skanky punters and everything else it brings.

Could that become legal?

Am I right that NI is about the criminalise the purchase of sex and scotland is having to respond as we may see an increase in sex tourism and all the delightful stuff that brings.

I don't really buy the argument that because some people go it and it works for them, that society should prioritise their 'rights' over the good of our communities as a whole.

I would support criminalising the purchase of sex

Original poster
weeonion · 05/12/2015 20:41

Emmawinkl - I have indeed read the proposal. Many times. Thanks for asking.

Could you explain how those who lobby for different legislation that you are supporting rape, abuse and assault those in prostitution. It is punters who do that..

Jean did not speak to survivors of sex industry / exited women. I stand by that assertion. Neither did she speak to frontline staff or services who work with those in prostitution. Why not I wonder?

Currently police Scotland and crown office have policy guidance to NOT arrest women when more than 2 are together. It is a misrepresentation to suggest otherwise.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 05/12/2015 20:38

Emma have you seen the punters' sites where they talk about and rate women?

And yes I don't think any one should have to live next door to a brothel. Punters s

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:31

And I don't accept the analogy some of you are using that "prostitution = slavery"

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:30

"my point about why other people should have to live next door to a brothel."

So you believe the right not to live next door to a brothel is more important than the safety of the people working there? And you think because there is more than 1 sexworker working there they should be arrested and charged?

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:28

If I were to hire a plumber, would I be "buying his hands"?

If I were to hire an accountant, would I be "buying his brain"?

If I hired a massage therapist, would I be "buying his/her hands"?

Or would I just be paying for whatever service they are offering?

Do you see how silly your terminology is?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 05/12/2015 20:27

it works on the premise that women are going to be exploited anyway so might as well make it easier

Yes exactly that. What is so hard to understand ? And of course there will be some young men too.

I suppose there were also slave owners who might not have physically mistreated their slaves. Maybe they could have been allowed to keep them?

And I see none of the pro punter lobby are willing to address my point about why other people should have to live next door to a brothel.

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:26

"The top priority is reforming society to think buying a body to masturbate in to is as unacceptable as owning slave or sending children down coal mines."

"Buying a body"?

Why do you say "body" to refer to a living person? When people talk about "bodies" they generally mean the bodies of the deceased.

There's something about the language prohibition-advocaters use that just creeps me out.

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:24

"I honestly don't think removing pimping laws will make it easier for the vast majority."

Pimping is already illegal in Scotland and JQ's has no plan to change that, she wants sexworkers to be able to work together without committing a crime. Have you read the consultation document?

"Who makes it unsafe emmawinkl?"

People who lobby for unsafe laws.

"I do think alot more voices are allowed I this debate than just sex workers. Services, survivors, support workers have an important role. Jean spoke to none of them."

Jean spoke to no surviving sex workers? What??

Original poster
weeonion · 05/12/2015 20:23

Useumum - services in Edinburgh say conditions lwats were appalling in saunas with little control over choices. Workers dealt with horrific cases and continue to do so.
The wonderfully pragmatic approach in Edinburgh meant there was no editing support or services when needed, something services working v hard to put in place.
Emmawinkl - I agree operation windemere was awful. Things happened that really shouldn't have. I do think it is notable though that services saw a huge increase in numbers of women who wanted out and needed support to do so.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 05/12/2015 20:22

You sound like you are just out of a Women Studies course

You must be new in these parts otherwise you'd know I'm the least likely poster to go within a country mile of a women's studies course.

The top priority is reforming society to think buying a body to masturbate in to is as unacceptable as owning slave or sending children down coal mines.

Original poster
weeonion · 05/12/2015 20:18

Emmawinkl- I haven't heard many people saying those who sell or exchange should be criminalised. those who choose to - will still be able to.

I am struggling to see how policy should be dominated by the vocal few business woman who have press and policy officers guiding them. Lets face it - what they are proposing is pretty self serving and I their own interests.
I honestly don't think removing pimping laws will make it easier for the vast majority.

Who makes it unsafe emmawinkl? It is the punters. New Zealand hasn't dealt with their violence. Yep , women say it is easier to report which is great but the violence is still there.

I do think alot more voices are allowed I this debate than just sex workers. Services, survivors, support workers have an important role. Jean spoke to none of them.

OP posts:
emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:16

@TheXxed, I don't give a shit about the PC-mumbo-jumbo you picked up on a Woman's Studies course. The top priority should be safety.

emmawinkI3 · 05/12/2015 20:15

As soon as Scotland's police forces merged into one all the Edinburgh saunas received surprise raids. Sexworkers were paraded outside in their underwear and had money and phones confiscated.

Hooray for prohibition! (sarcasm)

Swipe left for the next trending thread