proposed legislation in scotland - licensed saunas and legalised prostitution

Hirples, yes, it's almost always cited on MN when the Swedish model is discussed; there's a notable correlation with posters who also think Rachel Moran is a list.

Has there been "repeated use" of the Petite Jasmine case? I see only one comment on this thread which refers to the Swedish model possibly having been implicated.

The repeated use of Petite Jasmine, (a woman killed by her ex who I believe attacked a social worker at the same time) by our group of visitors as a failure of the Swedish model, rather than a comment on the social care judgement made for those children being placed with a violent father, makes me assume that all the arguments that group use are similarly tenuous...

Oh, I'm not sure if third Emma has been banned yet.

I wouldn't hold your breath for the links though.

Why not report your own post and ask, chi; I'm sure MNHQ would be pleased to give you their immediate attention.

why was emma banned?

The top priority is reforming society to think buying a body to masturbate in to is as unacceptable as owning slave or sending children down coal mines.

Well put, Lass. And if you'd used the phrase " renting a body to masturbate in" instead, it would be just as true, whatever word games Emma is trying to play before he/she gets banned for a third time.

And Gaye Dalton btw really is a sex worker. Unlike RM, there are plenty people able to vouch for Gaye.

Rachel Moran, oh you mean the liar.

maggiemcneill.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/gaye-dalton-affidavit.pdf

Interesting how a sex worker, Gaye Dalton, has worked on the same street RM claims to have worked on for 2 years and has not ever seen anyone matching her description.

She isn't the first person to have lied about working in the sex industry. "Patricia Perquin" was another who falsely claimed to have worked in Amsterdan's RLD and spewed out a whole load of horrific but fictional tales.

"If it has reduced the murder rate to zero, that is a good thing, of course."

Is it worth pointing out Sweden has a very small population spread out over a large area? So I'm not surprised if it has a lower murder rate than a country like England that has large densely populated cities.

And I do wonder if it wasn't for the swedish model if Petite Jasmine may still be alive today. She did go to the police about her abusive bf, but they were more interested in was what she did for a living. And they also took her children off her and give them to him. Because she was a prostitute.

How can a party "block" a bill??

Rhoda Grant's bill did not go anywhere because it failed to get cross-party support.

www.scot-pep.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf/scot-pep_response_to_rhoda_grant_consultation.pdf

Scot-PEP's response to Rhoda Grant's proposal. Not quite #SNPbad.

It is a proposal for a Bill. There was a previous consultation by Labour MSP Rhoda Grant in 2012 to introduce legislation following the Swedish model which the SNP blocked.

Or we could always put men, boys and male babies into POW-like camps so they can't harm women at all?

That is a ridiculous suggestion. Goodness knows I see a lot on this forum which I don't agree with but to try to suggest that anyone who opposes prostitution is saying that is just nonsense.

What the pro-punter lobby don't seem to understand it's not just radical feminists who oppose the normalisation of prostitution. My husband and son for example agree with my views on this.

Hmm, googling shows me several sites that claim the only prostitute murdered since the Swedish model was implemented was Petite Jasmine, and she wasn't killed in the course of her work. However, I can't find any actual official stats.

If it has reduced the murder rate to zero, that is a good thing, of course.

I'm being pedantic, but this isn't a Bill. It's a consultation. Depending on how that goes, Jean may (or may not) take things further and propose legislation, and then we can all rehearse our arguments again.

In what way does the Swedish model improve the safety of women? I get the "reduce demand = reduce violence" argument, but as already discussed upthread, making women work alone, and making streetwork more dangerous by reducing the time women have to assess punters, doesn't do that.

@weeonion: It is hard to find ex-prostitutes willing to answer questions. There's one who wrote this book called "Paid For", but she is one of the only ones who go public. Most women just don't want anyone to know about it, and want to leave that time in their life behind them - quite understandably.

Andrea Dworkin has some experience ... her opinion on the matter was obviously not considered.

I agree that women's orgs have changed official attitudes towards vawg, but the crucial point is that this doesn't seem to have stopped, or even reduced it very much. The two dead women a week stat was quoted by WA over 20 years ago and it's still quoted now, for example.

We now recognise financial, psychological and emotional abuse as abuse, but that doesn't reduce the frequency either. Educating women to recognise when it's happening, and to LTB, is good, and something at which MN excel. Educating our young (of both/all sexes/genders/whatevers) on the topic seems rather harder, especially in these days of readily available and totally unrealistic porn. I don't know what the answer to that is.

I do realise that most of those orgs would oppose Jean's proposals, but that's because their framing is that all prostitution is vaw. That doesn't mean they're "right".

Framing from the other side is that no, it's not. I think it's worth listening to the voices of those who are actually involved in sexwork, and my focus is on what is safest for the (mainly) women who work as prostitutes. I believe that Jean's proposals do that.

There is no middle ground that I can see.