proposed legislation in scotland - licensed saunas and legalised prostitution

*and Amnesty Int, just to add. You have heard Amnesty Int., one of the biggest international human rights orgs now advocates decriminalisation of sexwork worldwide as their official policy?

"All to justify your need to harm women."

I think the World Health Org, UNAIDs, HIV Scotland and groups made up of sex workers know more than you do about which laws are best suited to keep sex workers safe.

"Gosh, what a lot of posts. "

Indeed. Do you have any comment to make, other than to throw insults and accusations around?

"You're clearly not a feminist"

I don't hate men/boys. So you're right, I'm not.

Gosh, what a lot of posts.

All to justify your need to harm women.

Do toddle off, there's a dear.

Looks like feminists aren't interested in details anyway. Even when they are presented with evidence from Amnesty Int., the World Health Org, UNAIDs, HIV Scotland and groups made up of sex workers they just put their fingers in their ears and say "lalalala all prostitution is rape lalalalala any sexworker who disagrees is just part of the pimp lobby lalalalala"

For comparison in Sweden, advertising for sex is illegal. But that hasn't stopped online Swedish escort directories anyway.

It took me like under a minute using Google to find websites with pages of escorts in Stockholm and their contact details. So 16 or so years of the Swedish model has done nothing to prevent potential clients in Sweden being able to find sexual services.

They always come to these threads, which is why people tend not to comment on them too much. However, we got told off for not commenting.... Not your bad at all. Can't work out if this is the one who let a young student forced to prostitute herself pet his dog and talk about how awful she felt while she cried and cried before he raped her anyway or a different one. Don't much care either.

And it appears feminists are happy for sexworkers to continue being criminalised.

Feminists want prohibition even if it means sexworkers being arrested or having their safety compromised.

@VestalVirgin,

Escort profiles are not illegal. Buying and selling sex is legal in Scotland (between consenting adults indoors except brothels) and advertising sexual services is not illegal, however sexworkers are criminalised if they work in the same premises (even if they aren't working at the same time).

Oh, sorry, my bad. Didn't realize it was a troll. Sorry for feeding him.

Don't think PBP boy is all the interested in factual discourse.... just in being able to continue to pay to rape women.

meahifro ... wait, I thought the legalisation of prostitution is still in the planning phase in Scotland?

If the online escort profiles are technically illegal, then of course they wouldn't be affected by discrimination laws.

"The notion of sex as "service" is utter bullshit for a variety of reasons. If "sex work" was treated like any actual job, it would have to be banned simply because of the risks the "sex workers" are routinely exposed to. "

Then shouldn't we also ban working in a pub or corner shop in bad areas?

And working in the armed forces or even the police? yikes better ban those jobs too going by your logic

I'm sure we could come up with a long list of jobs more risky than working as a sex worker in a country where it is legal or decriminalised.

and for those wondering about if there is a conflict between a sexworker's right to say no and discrimination issues...

in Scotland at least, sexworkers have the right to refuse any client they want for any reason they want. Online escort profiles it is common to see things like "no blacks/no disabled/no Irish/no men with facial hair/no men with erectile issues/no men aged under x/over y" etc etc.

And incase you missed or forgot my Q, I will repeat it.

Who is paying Dalton for her opinion on RM?

Who is paying Dalton? And what would she have to gain by claiming to have never seen RM in those 2 years on that street?

I believe Dalton. I think RM is another "Patricia Perquin" [Google her] a liar who pretended to be a "prostituted woman" and made up lies about Amsterdam's RLD in an attempt to push through criminalisation laws.

PP was exposed when actual sex workers in Amsterdam became suspicious of her stories and how none of them had ever heard of or seen her. Example PP claimed to have something like 20+ clients a day and other sexworkers were all like how come she gets so many clients and we only get like 4 a day on a busy day.

Go West a little and it's practically the same with RM- RM has been exposed by a real sex worker.

maggiemcneill.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/gaye-dalton-affidavit.pdf

Not only was Rachel Moran an actual prostituted woman, and, I'm sorry, but Dalton is an unremitting bully who gets paid for her opinion, but there are plenty of other exited women who tell the same stories. Anyone quoting Dalton in an attack against Moran is really scraping the bottom of the barrel in their desperation to have women available for them to fuck without real consent.

Yy VV

And it would be illegal to wish to rent the orifices of a 20 something white woman if next up on the roster was a 60 something black woman. Or black man, if the service you were after was oral.

I feel very uncomfortable with prostitution. Many women in the sex trade are little more than girls and are incredibly vunerable. I don't think its something people choose to do as a career choice. I don't agree with legalisation, but I would like the law to punish the johns/ clients/ pimps rather than the prostitutes themselves.

Me, too. The prostitutes themselves are not the cause of the whole system. That's why I am in favour of the Swedish model, that also includes help to get out of prostitution, etc.

I hope that the right for a prostitute to say "no" to a paying client is greater than the rights of black, disabled, bisexual, relgious people have to access services with out unfair discrimination.

Well, yeah. The notion of sex as "service" is utter bullshit for a variety of reasons. If "sex work" was treated like any actual job, it would have to be banned simply because of the risks the "sex workers" are routinely exposed to.

STDs, including cervical cancer (through HPV), pregnancy, rape ... if all that was treated as work accident, they wouldn't be able to get insurance.

However, as we write, the right of lesbians to say "no" to men is already being eroded by the translobby. (Sorry. I know people are annoyed with the trans threads, but it is one of the biggest problems at the moment) They use "cotton ceiling" to imply that lesbians who won't let men into their panties are "transphobic".

The existence of prostitution, legal or not, certainly contributes to men's feeling or entitlement to women's bodies.

"Although I have to say I am not too worried about having my rights to refuse sex with gay men taken away. I never had to say "no" to sex with a gay man ... and I don't think I ever will, what with me being female and therefore not really their type. wink"

Ok... what I mean, would you say "no" to a bisexual man? Would you say "no" to a black man? A Muslim...

I can't imagine an openly gay person wanting sex with a woman, but someone might try to be provocative so they can have an excuse to take someone to court. I hope that the right for a prostitute to say "no" to a paying client is greater than the rights of black, disabled, bisexual, relgious people have to access services with out unfair discrimination.

I feel very uncomfortable with prostitution. Many women in the sex trade are little more than girls and are incredibly vunerable. I don't think its something people choose to do as a career choice. I don't agree with legalisation, but I would like the law to punish the johns/ clients/ pimps rather than the prostitutes themselves.

Good point, ReallyTired - sex (i.e. the use of female bodies for male masturbation) IS already seen as commodity, because prostitution exists. Legalizing the purchase of female bodies only makes it worse, as has been seen in Germany.

Although I have to say I am not too worried about having my rights to refuse sex with gay men taken away. I never had to say "no" to sex with a gay man ... and I don't think I ever will, what with me being female and therefore not really their type.

"
Prostitution is not rape. Sex workers have the right to say no just like anyone else. They have the right not to accept bookings and even if they do meet up with a client they have the right to say no to sex and they have the right to end the booking whenever they want."

If prostitution is legalised will it reduce a woman's right to refuse to have sex with a gay person because he is a gay or a black person because he is black? (Sex is one of the last areas where people are allowed to discrimate on racial or homophobic grounds.) Will the refusal to shag a man because he is homosexual result in being taken to the european court of justice just like the Christian couple who refused B and B to a gay couple or that bakery who refused to make a cake for a gay organisation. I worry that women will be even more powerless if sex becomes a comodity.

I can't make advanced search pinpoint the PJ posts but there are some on here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2004170-Newnight-report-on-brothels