Terrorism in Colorado Springs

I now read that articile, and Freshwater, I think it is because men know (or fear) that fewer women would do PiV with them if abortion were outlawed and/or, as the article mentioned, they'd have to take responsibility for children.
Maybe the knowledge that many women would not abort makes this even more feasible - they can point at the theoretical possbility of abortion and declare themselves free of any responsibility for the child.

For the women, there could be a bit of holier than thou attitude in it - they might (think they can) abstain from (PiV-centric) sex when they don't want children, and they want to force everyone to do the same.

Maybe they are deeply unhappy themselves (already five children, or whatever) and want others to feel as unhappy.

I have often observed that kind of attitude in women who have to diet to stay thin - they are the most judgemental of overweight people.

@Bumbledumb: I agree - this article antjeschrupp.com/2014/09/02/warum-mehrheitsentscheidungen-oft-undemokratisch-sind/ states that it would not be democratic to have the majority (who is not affected by laws on abortion) vote on abortions.

IF someone must vote, it should only be women. But the ideal case be would every woman voting on her own uterus.

That's an interesting article. I wasn't aware that it came out so consistently that women outnumber men in wanting to reduce time limits or ban (though the article doesn't break that down, which I think is a key missing bit - are women more in favour of a lower cutoff or outright ban? If it's an outright ban I can only say Wow). It's very counter-intuitive.

It's a snapshot and i'd be interested in drilling down further into the why - and also correlation between those beliefs and likelihood of actually having an abortion, I wonder if that question has ever been asked?

Well it's one uterus, one vote. The vote pertaining to your own uterus. It's also symbolic. All these men arguing over our bodies. In my case it's a general dislike of men talking about women's bodies as if their opinion is important.

In reality it's the same argument as gay marriage. Don't want gay marriage? Great, don't marry someone the same sex as yourself.

Article about polls

I agree. No uterus, no veto.

Why should the possession of a uterus mean that one person can overrule another person's autonomy? Why should anyone have a veto? If a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy, then she should be free to do so. Why should another woman have the power to deny her that right?

Alright. Compromise. They can have free speech and I can stick my fingers in my ears and go, "LALALALA I can't hear you".

Sorry Mrs TP

And indeed VV

Me neither, TP. But, free speech.

@Any: Right, everyone can have an opinion. It is just that the one of people without uterus shouldn't count.

Not one that I want to hear AF

So dead people keeping actual live people alive should have more rights than live women keeping a fetus 'alive'

It might have something to do with half of all dead people being male.

Your organ donor plan won't work - one always can opt out of becoming an organ donor by living such an unhealthy lifestyle that the organs become useless.

However, women who drink during pregnancy will still be forced to give birth. (If they are not imprisoned for harming a fetus, that is)

I agree. No uterus, no veto.

Anyone can have an opinion of course.

No, it is based on the opinion that people shouldn't get to decide over things that won't ever affect them. No uterus, no opinion. Exactly.

Also, I believe that everyone should be an organ donor. Let's make that compulsory. Let's force everyone to donate organs regardless of their beliefs, history and choices. No? Even AFTER death people's choices are respected. Even when people are dying for lack of organs.

So dead people keeping actual live people alive should have more rights than live women keeping a fetus 'alive'.

Oh. I meant "for more restrictive laws on abortion", not "for abortion" ... okay, actually, they are for abortion, because they are, in most cases, also against contraception, but ... you know what I mean.

This is based on the stereotypical assumption that men are more opposed to the laws on abortion than women

No, it is based on the opinion that people shouldn't get to decide over things that won't ever affect them. No uterus, no opinion.

At least with women who vote for abortion, you have the consolation that they might bitterly regret it oneday.
It just satisfies a deeply human desire for justice, you know?

No, I would not agree to restrictive misogynist laws just because women voted for them.

Do you have a link to those polls in the UK?

I'm a feminist and a women and believe that people who don't have ovaries don't get a vote in this.

This is based on the stereotypical assumption that men are more opposed to the laws on abortion than women. Polls in the UK time and time again show that this is not the case and that women are far more likely to vote to restrict the availability of abortion than men are. Would you agree to more restrictive laws on abortion if only women voted?

Fair enough MrsTerryPratchett I agree self ownership and autonomy are the foundations upon which all freedoms stand.

My thanks for the tolerance of my tangents. I wouldn't dream of suggesting abortion should be outlawed for fear of sex selected abortions, I merely raised it in context that the sides on this debate are not always so black and white.

I'll bow out now for obvious reasons. Except to say it is terribly sad people have lost their lives to yet another madman with a gun.

YY to Vestal and MrsTerry.

Sex selective abortion is a phenomenon caused by the same patriarchal processes and oppression as the drive to roll back women's rights to bodily autonomy. Improve conditions so that women aren't second class citizens reduced to their value as breeding stock and gender selective abortion disappears. In a world that devalues women, sons are a better bet. In a more egalitarian society, that would be bonkers.

Yes Vestal you don't solve that by taking more power away from women, you solve it by taking the power away form men over women and giving it to the women.

However I think we must be cautious as many groups practice sex selective abortions (read aborting females), and I'm very concerned about that.

You cannot battle that by banning abortions i.e. oppressing women more. You can battle that by getting rid of internalized misogyny as well as social structures that disadvantage women.
(For example, if only males can inherit land, then of course couples want sons!)

Just for full disclosure I am a man and I find the idea of abortion incredibly saddening. I am a hairs breadth from being pro-life myself so I can empathise with those who hold that view (not those who actually go on to kill obvs!).

I'm a feminist and a women and believe that people who don't have ovaries don't get a vote in this. Giving birth to a child is life threatening. The UN about maternal mortality; “about one woman every two minutes [dies] and for every woman who dies, 20 or 30 encounter complications with serious or long-lasting consequences. Surely only the person who is going to have to face that, gets to decide whether that risk is what she wants to take with her body.

When rich white men in the States talk about abortion when they have no experience of ANY of the issues involved (poverty, rape, lack of resources, lack of healthcare including contraception, lack of childcare, no maternity leave, terrible housing, violence) I cannot express how angry that makes me.

The foundational fear buried in misogyny is very easy to see.

If you accept that women are people on a level standing with men, then you must also accept that their opinions and abilities have equal standing. Once you do that, all the power and privilege that is currently concentrated in the status of men in the patriarchy is lost.

By forcing women to give birth to unwanted children you effectively reduce them to breeding stock.

I quite agree OneMoreCasualty, but in the use of the word phobia it is implicit that fear lies at the root of the response, meaning if you tackle the fear you tackle the hatred. I suspect in much the same way misogyny has a foundational fear buried in there somewhere too.

Absolutely Seneca, it's anti-rational and batshit crazy, it's like being against thirst and anti water too. When you put it like that it does read like we don't trust women and thus control.

However I think we must be cautious as many groups practice sex selective abortions (read aborting females), and I'm very concerned about that.

Dervel, whilst phobia technically means fear, homophobic comments tend to be hate rather than fear filled and may indeed count as hate speech.

I agree with slug. Furthermore, many people in the US who are anti-choice are also anti-birth control. It's a deeply misogynistic belief system.