Lib Dem Peer calling for justice for Trans Prisoners

Oh no, it's about security.

Does it mean if there are no Category A places availble for women prisoners, the category overrides the sex segregation?

I assume there is a provision for women prisoners to be in male facilities in specific circs - perhaps when the only prison hospital offering support for a certain condition is in the male estate?

4.3 confuses me.

I read as, if the crime a TW has committed, means she needs different facilities than the general population of female prisoners, and if that prison does not have those facilities,then a TW woman can be refused and be housed as a woman on the male estate, the same way a female from the female prison requiring the same facilities would be housed in the male prison. (I'm thinking along lines of peadophiles being segregated etc ?)

4.4 a transmen will always be allowed on the male estate because there will always be the required facilities on the male estate?

To me a case by case approach seems the fairest way for everyone involved. Much better than a blanket, all go here or here approach. In the absence of a trans only wing/ prison anyway.

I'm not saying I agree with the trans position but they've got the same rights as everyone else.

I'm not even going to talk about the petitions. They have their place but I think 90% of them are ridiculous.

No. I was reading however the MOJ's guidance - "The care and management of transsexual prisoners" and found the following interesting - particularly 4.3 and 4.4.

4.1. Prison Rule 12(1) provides that women prisoners should normally be kept separate from male prisoners.

4.2. In most cases prisoners must be located according to their gender as recognised under UK law. Where there are issues to be resolved, a case conference must be convened and a multi-disciplinary risk assessment should be completed to determine how best to manage a transsexual prisoner’s location. See Annex D for more details.

4.3. A male to female transsexual person with a gender recognition certificate may be refused location in the female estate only on security grounds – in other words, only when it can be demonstrated that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. In such circumstances she will be considered a female prisoner in the male estate and must be managed according to PSO 4800 Women Prisoners.

4.4. A female to male transsexual person with a gender recognition certificate may not be refused location in the male estate. This is because there are no security grounds that can prevent location in the male estate.

4.5. If a prisoner requests location in the estate opposite to the gender which is recognised under UK law, a case conference must be convened to consider the matter. The case conference will consider all relevant factors and make a recommendation to a relevant senior manager above establishment level who will make the final decision. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to seek legal advice from the Offender Management Team in the Ministry of Justice Legal Directorate.

4.6. Before a prisoner is placed in custody, attempts must be made to determine which gender is recognised under UK law. This is a legal issue rather than an anatomical one, and under no circumstances should a physical search or examination be conducted for this purpose. If attempts are unsuccessful, the prisoner should be placed according to the best evidence available and the prisoner’s gender status must be determined as soon as possible. If it emerges that a prisoner has been placed in the estate opposite to the legally recognised gender, a transfer must be arranged as soon as possible unless the prisoner requests location in this estate.

There are around 80 transgender prisoners in the UK. A breakdown by nation is not provided but by population you would expect this to be around 70 in England and Wales. Around 7 in Scotland and 3 in Northern Ireland. Prisons are a devolved issue. You would expect that at most 2 wings could be sustained in England and Wales for this population and 1 in each of Scotland and Northern Ireland. In particular the Northern Irish Unit would be at risk of having 1 prisoner at times and in effect being solitary confinement. Both the Northern Irish and Scottish units would be uneconomical.

In each all nations transgender prisoners would be moved at times so far from home as to make visitation difficult to impossible. As a result I suspect HMP would still be at risk of accusations of discrimination.

To a lesser extent the same is already true of women's prisons (12 in England compared to 100 male prisons) but the effecct would be more pronounced.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to have a separate trans prison or wing?

kua Is there any situation which you would consider placement of a transgender MtF in a women's prison or vice-versa?

'Isn't a case by case approach like she's suggesting a decent idea?'

No, because as we've seen 150k signatures rules out a 7 inch cock and a history of violence.

"In Tara's case, she was put in a prison with 600 men, many of whom had committed violent offences..."

Erm wasn't Tara herself convicted after headbutting a bar man?

Isn't a case by case approach like she's suggesting a decent idea?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/baroness-barker/transgender-prisoners_b_8637234.html not read it yet