Lib Dem Peer calling for justice for Trans Prisoners

Yes, I'm worried the actual FACTS (prisoners in Close Supervision Centres, prisoners who have already got a long list of violent convictions, and are a danger to themselves and others) will get forgotten under the 'ALL trans prisoners should be in lady-jail' call.

How EXACTLY is any reform proposed? Given the existing law as regards people with a GRC (whatever you think of that!), there is at least a LEGALLY recognized process in place that someone has to got through to get their ACTUAL sex replaced by this legal fiction.

The papers seem to have the 'living all their adult life AS a woman' (whatever the feck THAT means!) criterion, which frankly might as well be, continually STATES they are, and keeps wearing dresses so OBVIOUSLY isn't living as a man. The 'living as a woman' concept is already enshrined in law, unfortunately, DESPITE many women finding it an ODD concept at best.

If this campaign gains ground, then things can only get closer to legally should be treated as a woman cos they say they are (and looks okay in a dress) criterion that trans activists seem to want..............

I'm fed up with the gay/transgender correlation. Time for this to stop.

www.religionnews.com/2015/03/19/gay-transgender-inmates-invited-lunch-pope-francis-prison-visit/

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/second-trans-woman-found-dead-in-a-male-prison?bffbuknews&utm_term=.vxbqmlNAG5#.qb108qrlV9

From the Graun report into this second death:

"Latham had not requested a transfer to a women’s prison, the Guardian understands. In any case she would not have been eligible for a transfer, as there are no CSC units for women in the English justice system."

Latham had only been "living as a woman" since the summer.

I see in the news that a second trans inmate has been found dead in a male prison.

Which provides a rather different example of trans inmates, someone who was supposedly in the early stages of their transition. They were imprisoned after being found guilty of attempted murder in 2001. Convicted of a SECOND attempted murder in prison in 2007, and a THIRD whilst in Rampton secure hospital in 2011.

So, we have someone who was clearly a danger to others, even in secure environments, and it may be they were also a danger to themselves, given the circumstances of their death (yet to be determined).

Given this example of the possible complications, it is still extremely worrying that seemingly the best the law can do is -- once you have a GRC, you are LEGALLY a woman, hence should be housed in a womens prison. And GRC not even required if this continues.....................

I don't see how that would have made ANYONE safer in this case, and in many cases it would make the women LESS safe, certainly. But that does not seem to matter compared with the rights of trans prisoners to be placed where they WANT to be placed.

Italy seem to have a better idea according to a 2011 article from The Journal (Law Society of Scotland) -- a prison JUST for trans inmates.

@MrsPterry: Being housed with moles is alright. They are cute fluffy little animals, who, unlike males, are not at all dangerous. Maybe they'd be a bit of a pest in the prison garden, but other than that ...

If I ever commit a crime and have to go to prison, I will demand to be housed with moles, not males.

I shouldn't have laughed on such a serious thread but, human right for women not to be housed with moles made me giggle.

Fact is that a (for example) small, weak, openly gay man would be at massive, ongoing risk in a male prison. It's not the risk that causes the move, it's the law that self-identified gender now supersedes sex. For some utterly ridiculous reason.

Fuck

*males

I asked this on one of the TH threads but nobody seemed to know

If it is a human right for women not to be housed with moles, will the prisoners living with TH be able to take a case to the ECHR?

There are an estimated 80 trans people in uk prisons so doubt there is much on stats.

The GRC trumps all unless a born woman would be put in the male estate in the exact same circs.

"The GRC law changes your birth certificate.." Strictly speaking, I think a NEW one is issued, and the link between the old and the new kept in a register, access to which is restricted. I think, similarly to the Kim Walmsley case where a clerical error recorded her as a boy, the ORIGINAL cannot be destroyed or amended, even if incorrect, instead a replacement and a note of WHY there is a replacement has to made. The records entered on the register cannot be erased or amended directly, just replaced. The record IS the record!

As regards this case (and the recent trans prisoner from Bristol), as far as I know, NEITHER of then had applied for a GRC (where the relevant panel has to be shown some sort of evidence of your 'gender' identity). Hence the current furore, is accepted, would in effect be -- someone HAS a female gender identity (and hence goes to a womens prison), if they SAY they have. No convincing a panel required.

Why? Why after all, do we house males and females seperatly? If BIOLOGY , then self-identification means diddly. If BIOLOGY, then a transman with only top surgery, despite the best response to T going will still tend to have a smaller frame than a male, and be vulnerable to being raped in a different way to a male, and still possibly in danger of pregnancy (transmen have given birth, we saw the news!). There are apparently exceptions possible under the act for SPORTING events (except the case of the trans woman cage fighter who did SERIOUS damage to the female fighter who came up against them!), so why this insistence that in PRISONS, subjective beliefs should come first? YES, make proper allowances for vulnerable prisoners, but WHY should the rights of females to be housed ONLY with females be ignored?

I might just add , in the US, there are several cases of male rapists and murderers claiming they are trans and trying to get (I assume), both SRS and transfer to a womens prison. DO we REALLY want to see the possibility of that in the UK?

The GRC law changes your birth certificate and recognises you legally as the opposite sex. As long as this legislation is in place, exceptions to this legal recognition are probably impossible.

A trans man with a GRC would be placed in the male estate.

I hope that part of the process of getting the GRC would include a review of changes to one's rights and would include this point.

Given that many transmen only have top surgery, placing them in a male prison would make them extremely vulnerable. Seems to me we have two issues, physical vulnerability to violence from others based on sex, and self-harm due to situation. A very effeminate, physically weak and emotionally fragile gay man for example may be at great risk in a male prison, and be of low risk or not any threat in a female prison, yet no one is suggesting they be placed anywhere but in a male prison and hopefully somewhere for vulnerable prisoners. Why should subjective beliefs about gender trump any further consideration than this case? If we segregate based on sex, that is what we do, except this mad GRC law says otherwise, and now some want it extended to where there is no GRC and everyone just has to be treated as what they sincerely claim they are. This is not justice for women, female biology and female biological vulnerabilities matter based on sex not convictions, however sincere.

Kua, I don't think that's what the guidelines say - a woman or a GRC trans woman will both be put into the male estate if the female estate cannot accommodate their security level. A trans man with a GRC (or a man) would never be put in the female estate. It's not a right or a choice by the prisoner.

they've got the same rights as everyone else

Mide7 it would seem that transwomen have more rights than women prisoners - TW seem to have the right not to be housed with male-bodied people, but women don't.

It's utterly bizarre.

Fair enough VV, I can't see many instances either but I don't believe a blanket "this is what happens with trans people" statement is the way to go either. I think a wing or prison would be the best way to go but I can't see that happening with such a small percentage of the prison population.

@Mide: I see no case in which it would be reasonable to put a male person into a women's prison.

Decisions on a case by case basis would be reasonable with regard to intersex prisoners, i.e. people where you cannot actually determine the sex as either female or male. (For example, a person with only one X chromosome would not display all traits of a XX woman, but would have been socialised as female, etc. - most people would decide to put her into a women's prison, I suppose.)

With transwomen, though, the case is clear, they are male, and therefore should go to male prison. They may require more protections than the average male prisoner, but the same goes for lots of others - someone who testified against his accomplices in court, for example, would also be in increased danger of violence by other prisoners.

Determining placement in prison by "gender" is bollocks.

Yeah I read the guidelines after the most recent media shit storm. Which I think is what randomuser posted, IMO they seem about as sensible as your going to get in relation to these things.

Mide, any case by case decision would need guidelines - which is actually the current set up ie a GRC means default to the reassigned sex and beyond that, if the prisoner is en route to a GRC, review case by case (as presumably happened with Tara Hudson's relocation )