Performing Femininity and Feminism

and the advantage or wizards is they don't get swords, or bows, but maybe a stave (staff)

@onahorse: It is kind of sad that you have to limit your sons choices so that he is not bullied (I guess that is your reason for gender neutral?)

Maybe you could make exceptions for him, such as dressing up for Halloween, etc., where he gets to have pink glitter.

And steer him towards LARP as soon as possible, if there's a community where you live. I have always been of the opinion that most men look way more interesting in their colourful LARP costumes than in they everyday life - and it is totally accepted for wizards to wear colourful robes, maybe even with glitter.

(Like the abovementioned dancing, LARP helps you notice that gender is performance. And could help a young boy realize that men CAN get to wear nice clothes too, that the reason they don't is totally made-up and cultural.)

i love dressing up for special occasions, but as it is so rare it is like fancy dress. every day i look like a librarian (i have been reliably told) skirt reaches floor, jumper reaches knees.

But like a previous poster i don't think i count as a female at work, as i am in the kitchen at lunchtime talking computer games and dungeons and dragons with the biggest geeks.

Our previous child minder was orange with fake tan and foundation also claws a wild cat would be proud off.

This has really worried me for my daughter who wanted to copy her and is obsessed with my very small makeup bag. But then she also sees me excited when I do do makeup so from me learns it is exciting and buzzy.

This is an interesting thread.

Performing the stereotyped ideas of femininity doesn't come easily to me either.

I don't like make-up and I don't like high-heeled shoes. I also don't like removing body hair.

My daughter (9 years old at the moment) is currently following in my footsteps. I am not sure if she would have been like that anyway (after all, I always was), or if she is copying me. I know this may change as she hits puberty, but girls in her school are already wearing make up and she hasn't shown any interest yet. As for hobbies, she goes to a sports club, but I don't consider sports stereotypically male, except perhaps rugby. She also likes reading books about animals. Again, all this may change as she gets older.

I do what is expected of me on social occasions, the bare minimum, but I am constantly aware that it doesn't feel comfortable, and I don't feel like me.

The expectation, that he will perform gender is greater, the rules stricter, and of course if he conforms, the benefits far greater.

But to my shame I steer him towards gender neutral rather than the pink glitter he would prefer.

It's nice that he considers those hobbies exciting and I hope he sticks with them.

And for my son? Who at 4 is one if two boys in his ballroom class and the only one in ballet.
He has surmised that it is better to be a girl (except when peeing), as they do more exciting stuff. And wear better clothes.

I went to see Gina Rippon speak tonight.

I work in a techy area of IT. I've had more than one colleague in more than one job comment that, "You don't count, you're one of us," when I've done things like pull them up on lech in over a passing woman. So they don't expect me to perform feminity because they don't really see me as a woman and so can accept that I'm good at my job (ignoring that I'm way better than most of them.) I was always like this - I've never worn makeup (except nail varnish,) and my hair has always been in a style which I don't have to faff about with after swimming. But I am still definitely female, even if they don't recognise it - I'm just not stereotypically feminine, mostly.

Yy vv - but explicitly required as 'performance', not reality. And limited to actual stage performance. Whereas the life long performance of femininity is altogether more all-consuming, if you follow the stage directions...

We have not experienced any physical requirements or even preferences in terms of shape/ size (that are allegedly rampant in terms of inducing ED etc - and dd1 is no frail nymph) just the out and out 'performance' aspects meant to trick the audience into believing that the dancers are all light feathery 'beautiful' maidens floating about the stage in the half-light, rather than a herd of stomping, grunting, sweating teenagers exerting themselves and panting like dogs, after spending hours getting their eyelashes stuck on. The reality is the physicality, the aesthetic is, well, the aesthetic. Problematic for all sorts of reasons. (As is the assumption that dance is all glitter and twirls, rather than representations of DV or mental illness etc - but in the same way that a classical ballet requires 'performance', so does a representation of anything else through dance.) It has definitely given dd1 a very different attitude to the performance of femininity though. She knows full well that it is artificial.

It must become more problematic in terms of living it as a professional where your absolute raison d'être is performance. More difficult to dissociate and the lines blur between performance and reality? I don't know. As a teen who spends two months a year 'performing', there is enough distance to objectively dissect performance and reality?

I find it fascinating. It's almost enough for me to drag out the Judith Butler, but not quite.

" mn demonises dance as a feminist fate worse than death,"

Haven't seen this! Was it around prevalence of disordered eating or similar?

@madwoman: Well, in that case, dancing is a sword with two sharp edges, isn't it? It shows you the truth about femininity by making things that are implicitly required of women explicitly required.
So, you would probably not want to do it for longer, what with all those requirements of body modification, but it provides valuable insights.

I just had to physically try out the 'looking at nails' thing.

In my first 'grown-up' job, a handyman arrived to attach a 'modesty board' to my desk. Presumably because the men were way too embarrassed to actually tell me they could see right up my skirt. It always makes me smile when mn demonises dance as a feminist fate worse than death, as our experience has shown that it actually shows up the 'art' for what it is - a performance- and that can then be critically applied to life choices.

"and it's continued by older men giving preference to young men "with potential" over women who are proven safe bets."
O god YES!

I think the problem now is the sexism is still THERE, just covert rather than overt. So, whereas in the past it might have been 'don't be DAFT, of course a woman isn't capable of doing X', now it will be voiced as above -- giving the job to someone younger 'with potential' (who just happens to be male), but giving the job to 'an experienced hand', if the younger person happens to be female!

Which unfortunately makes it a DAMN sight harder to prove at an industrial tribunal.

"There is a vicious undercurrent to the way young men take delight in showing up older women."
I think it's not just YOUNG men (unfortunately).

With older men, young men seem to be expected to challenge (think young stags with puny antlers but STILL willing to have a go at the 12-point stag), and gain kudos for attempting it, and no loss of status. Whereas with older women? Invisible! Totally............So when you have an older women in an actual position of higher status/authority, they don't know what to do, apart from the default 'I'm male therefore SUPERIOR'. Because a male deferring to an older woman is ONLY allowed if it's your mum and only if you're five..........

Which is a dominance structure that DOESN'T help women. Because when presented with the oft-occurring junior female researcher/student, senior male professor scenario, women tend to NOT challenge in the same way, but defer. And in academic terms, NOT being willing to challenge makes you look like a lightweight. Whereas challenging the senior male makes you look like an aggressive harridan. So you LOSE either way.

Who needs to go watching stags on scottish islands, or silver-back gorillas in Rwanda -- just go to your nearest academic conference/workshop with at least a few women, and make your observations there. And then perhaps you can have a chance at explaining why the higher up the academic ladder you go, the fewer women.

Here are some things I learned about feminity growing up.

Pushing your hands forward is the feminine way to look at your nails - (I mean wtf?)

Aged about 19 a colleague took me aside and 'taught me to walk like a woman'. - Not sure what was going on there...

A friend trying to force me into stilletos to 'keep her company' as she was wearing heels.

DoDo do you work over and above your responsibilities? I did, my boss made life very difficult for me when I needed time off for sons autism diagnosis, so I stopped. I now only do what I am required to do, I don't cover for him or clean up his messes. He is slowly being performance managed out of his job.

Slightly off topic but wondered if anyone has read the book by the female executive of FB about ' leaning in' and whether there's anything useful in that, or is it just about how to play the men at their own game..?

Yes I do think we are going backwards in some respects, this is a promo video from a sorority house in the US. The video received a lot of backlash. The part that I found the weirdest was the fact that the women never said anything just pranced around.

I am not very "butch" and not lesbian (am married) and really don't consider myself radical but I couldn't work in a corporate environment that required heels or compulsory skirts, make up etc. I just couldn't be arsed or concentrate on my work. I wear chinos and Chelsea boots. Sometimes skirts and dresses but with opaque tights and flats.
In my sector this is completely normal. Women almost all wear flats. I've noticed natural grey hair is not unusual either.
So I guess OP that if I were in your work I'd feel similar to how you feel. Yes.

I find this subject really tortured and depressing tbh. I'm 50 and I really feel like women's equality has gone backwards in so many ways the last few decades. There's such a culture of hyper femininity these days that just didn't exist in the 80s and it's all so bloody fake. Fake boobs, tan, eyelashes etc are just seen as the norm these days and no one is even arguing against it. Women are expected to look like Barbie dolls and that's celebrated rather than challenged. I have absolutely no idea where to start to challenge this...

To the tune of beastie boys

"Were gonna fight for our right to mediocrity"

There is the underlying assumptions that women are always unqualified, at 18 a man can feel he is superior to woman who has decades of experience and is highly qualified.

There is a vicious undercurrent to the way young men take delight in showing up older women.

Lol, cross stitch that. My new slogan. Sadly, my ego struggles with mediocrity, even though I'm saddled with it.

Yy, not holding academia up as a bastion of equality by any means, but at least there is a theoretical tolerance for questioning cultural expectations (if not actually challenging them). Probably a rose-tinted vision. A gal needs to dream.