Are women conditioned to think they always have to be "nice"?

I think there is the cultural niceness that is probably expected of men and women alike - politeness, being neighbourly etc and the particulars of this vary as to the culture, which differs between countries but also in big cites vs small villages.

But I do gendered expectations of niceness as well. I find it hard to explain but I often find that if a man and I behave in the exact same way, there are different results. This happens at work and socially. Say if someone says something a bit silly, I often see a man be pretty abrupt about it and basically say 'that's bollocks' and the person being corrected and the people around just think the man knows his stuff. However, if I was to do the same thing I would be seen as being mean so have to sugarcoat correcting someone if I don't want to be seen as a horrible person.

I'm also nice to people if I think there is a chance I'm in danger. In the past I have politely but firmly asked men who are pestering me late at night to leave me alone and it has only ever ended in harassment and physical violence that I have had to run away from. I'm sure some men also experience this but just talking to the men I know they associate that experience with school bullies and haven't experienced it since adulthood.

The Japanese are quite good too. ;)

True only Brits form a proper queue

I have lived in a arab country and a women there would think nothing of pulling someone up if they say jumped the queue there would not be the polite excuse me I think you may have not realised there is a queue here they would be more upfront but the conditioning to keep women oppressed is certainly there

Wait? You've lived in the Middle East and someone actually knew how to form a que?!? (I say as someone who has lived in Qatar and the UAE for 10 years).

I think it is a product of environment but also social and cultural attitudes as a black woman I can speak my mind I don't know about being 'nice' per ce but as a Christian woman you can be expected to have a forgiving and understanding attitude but i think that is expected from men too...sometimes societal norms need to be challenged...I dare anyone to say I'm 'hormonal' where I work

And EElisaveta - 5 is so little.

I've definitely noticed women being criticised more for lack of niceness, where men can be pretty fucking abrasive before they get pulled up on it. I tend to respond "yes, and that's precisely why I hired her, to [display leadership/take responsibility/whatever phrase we've been using recently to denote "valuable person who gets shit done"].

I noticed in my last long-term job that if I wasn't being 'nice' I was called 'hormonal' (frequently by women as well as men). It was a mechanism to stop pesky women challenging the top figures (all male) who dispensed the largesse and patronage upon which they had all come to lazily rely.

Coincidentally DD confided in me this morning that a boy at school had asked to see her knickers, she didn't want to but didn't want to say no in case people didn't want to be her friend. So I am going for the bolshy option a bit more now. Have seen the teacher, asked for it to be dealt with and made sure DD knows I am taking her side, also had the conversation about it doing anything you're not comfortable with and friends not asking you to. She's 5, I didn't think it would come so soon .

yes I think we are and it is so ingrained as much of our conditioning is that we do not notice it

saying that I do think it is part of English or maybe British culture to be nice and non confrontational. I have lived in a arab country and a women there would think nothing of pulling someone up if they say jumped the queue there would not be the polite excuse me I think you may have not realised there is a queue here they would be more upfront but the conditioning to keep women oppressed is certainly there

See Canadian cartoonist Kate Beaton point out how nice Canadians are.
www.harkavagrant.com/?id=250

Elisaveta, you could focus on bringing them up to be nice to nice people and share with those who have less.

The problem with the way women are conditioned is that we feel obliged to share with men who have more then we (women who think feminism should care about men are an example of that conditioning gone mad), and to submit to male violence, verbal or physical, because it would not be "nice" to talk back.

So, before you scold them for not being nice, you could take a moment to think about whether this person they weren't nice to actually needed/deserved niceness.
Kicking puppies = bad. Beating rabid dogs with a stick = self-defense.

You will sometimes have to tell them to play nice even if a person deserves to be yelled at, but in such cases, you could take the time to explain the concept of picking your battles, and maybe not challenging the teacher on the first day of school.

The best way to raise your daughters will be to set high standards of polite behaviour (hello, how are you, please, thankyou, goodbye) as you would whether male or female.

Then also point out patriarchal sexism when it is relevant (such as in the media, or day-to-day expectations, ludicrous gendered objects in stores...). Then leave them to it!

Equipping your daughters with their own ability to critically analyse is the best anyone can do.

Some of these comments worry me about how I am as a parent to my DCs, who are girls. I think I want to bring them up to be nice to others, and to be able to share, but maybe I'm not encouraging enough bolshiness - that willingness to push forward. DD1 isn't really a pushy type, DD2 much more so. It feels like a delicate balance, avoiding forcing her into stereotypical compliant girl behaviour, teaching manners and consideration as I would with boys, and letting her be herself.

Gosh, really? Maybe all we female socialized people should move to Canada and live happily ever after.
If everyone is just as nice, there shouldn't be problems because of it. Though I suppose it could get a bit crowded.

@cailindana: Yes, it is amazing what men can get away with. And there really seems to be some intersection with culture - the British are also a rather polite culture, at least that's the stereotype.

Yes women are conditioned to be "nice".

Where do you think the term "bitch" started?

A woman will never dare shout our random opinions at people in the street (such as "cheer up love") because women learn very early on, as girls, that this behaviour is "bitchy". But a man behaves this way and it is "funny".

Look at stand up comedy for examples of very bitchy things men say that women cannot get away with.

Absolutely VestalVirgin. After over a decade overseas I can honestly say Canadians are nice to our detriment. I know so many of my friends, male and female, who've gotten in troubling situations for being too nice.

However, I do see in other cultures that women are expected to be nicer in general.

@Thefitfatty: Probably both? Do you get the impression that Canadian men are just as nice as you?

I think women are definitely conditioned from a young age to be nice. However, in my case I'm not sure if I'm more conditioned to be nice because I was born a woman, or because I was born Canadian.

A few things that I've found:

-I'm Irish, so culturally I'm more direct than British people. I find I am 'allowed' to be much more direct than other women because people don't see it as a woman being bolshy or bossy but as an Irish person being oh so funny and Irish. That said, people have described me as 'scary' because I simply state what I think I don't hedge and apologise and butter people up. People don't seem to get offended by my behaviour, they just laugh. I think if a British woman took my approach she'd be seen as rude.

-Men are very quick to tell women off for things, but if women criticise them back, they are seen as rude. Men automatically assume they have the right to criticise women - they see themselves as 'in charge' regardless of the circumstances. One example of this was a recent email I got from someone who works with my organisation but who has no remit to criticise me. I have never met him and yet he saw fit to send me an email, without introducing himself, telling me I hadn't done some work and explaining organisational strategy to me (strategy by the way that I had fucking written). I know a lot of women would have apologised etc (for what?) but I emailed back saying, politely, 'I did do that work, also I make decisions based on solid reasoning that you don't seem to grasp.' He emailed back basically saying 'oh yeah, I didn't even check, have a good weekend.' No sorry whatsoever from him, despite the fact that I pointed out his criticism was unfounded. I was so wound up about it and wasted time and energy thinking about a response. Women have to deal with that shit all the time and it undermines their confidence. Men don't think twice about it. However, if I had emailed him not introducing myself and criticising his work I'm sure I'd have had all sorts of shit rained down on my head.

-Related to the last point. Men's behaviour (up to and including rape and murder) is always justified, women's behaviour is always wrong.

meph by trait I don't mean it's inherent but that the same behaviour in men is seen differently. So by not engaging in debate with wrong people my DH is seen as confident whereas I feel I'm being compliant and nice.

I think that what I was trying to say is that because I didn't see it as a way I should behave because I'm a girl but instead as a way I should behave as a person I expected the same of my children who all happen to be boys. It is very recently that I've noticed (from mumsnet mainly) that it is a behaviour that is expected more from women than men.

People pleasing is a uniquely female trait I think.

Women have been socialised to believe this, as part of ensuring they do not seek alternative methodologies is to convince them that those behaviours 'belong' to the other gender.

DH doesn't engage in debate with people who think differently- he's confident in his opinions and doesn't believe he'll change theirs so why waste his breath.

Plenty of men on the internet do engage in (pointless) debate, trying to change other people's opinions though.
Yes women (girls) are conditioned to be nice, but I don't think your husband is that representative of men in general.

Lilith that's interesting and you're not wittering!
People pleasing is a uniquely female trait I think. Or perhaps it's just seen differently? DH doesn't engage in debate with people who think differently- he's confident in his opinions and doesn't believe he'll change theirs so why waste his breath. Or he doesn't want a disagreement and prioritises harmony?