Are you a big fat cissexist?

I couldn't read past the comment that sex related biology is pseudo-science. WTAF?

Damn right I'm cissexist. I got accused of being a TERF the other day and almost said "thank you"

It can only be a matter of time before a huge number of people reach trans peak and we'll see a massive number of toys being thrown out of the pram once people stop putting them on a pedestal.

I think I became a proud TERF the day I saw that apparently it's cissexist if a lesbian doesn't "allow" any trans male to female to penetrate them with their penis. How is pressuring people into non consensual sex through emotional manipulation and blackmail acceptable? Oh yeah, because you've slapped a rainbow flag on your twitter header and said "DIE TERF SCUM" in your bio.

For a group of people who claim to be so against violence - yesterday was trans day of remembrance - I've never seen such a group of violenxe-advocating keyboard warriors in my life. I've never seen a "TERF" wish death on a trans person - of course, when we explain our views of gender being an imaginary social construct, we're told that we're "erasing" or "silencing" them, which is probably the same in their eyes - and yet the "terfisaslur" website is loaded with examples of the horrific threats transactivists have made towards anyone they deem to be a TERF. Fucking hypocrites.

You don't have a "girl dick", you don't have a "mangina", and you either want to be accepted as a woman/man or you don't. Someone who wants to be treated like any other woman doesn't reference their girl dick. Someone who wants to be treated like a man doesn't talk about man-struating and manginas. And someone who is so anti violence and pacifist doesn't spend half their waking hours posting "I want to kill all TERF and cissexist scum, find me a TERF to kill" on Twitter.

Men often have bigger noses (or is that cissexist too?) - perhaps they should put Lilets in men's toilets to help them staunch serious nosebleeds,

This all seems like some sort of bizarre parody of political correctness, to me. I am sorry but it's true that there are men, and women. Ok within that there are people who don't identify etc etc but these are subsets. Men who identify as women are subsets of men (albeit with their unique issues which should be recognised) and women who identify as male are still subsets of women (ditto requiring recognition etc). Men who choose to identify and even change their bodies to resemble women are not women. Launching campaigns to force their issues to be discussed under the banner of feminism is just another means of male oppression against women, their history, experiences and their need for their own spaces. Interestingly I haven't seen those women who wish to become men arguing for space in male prisons etc..!

Why on earth are the terms penis and vagina in quotation marks? We all have to refer to our genitalia as purported penises or vaginas? I pushed two babies out of mine, there is nothing purported about it that would warrant quotation marks. It's not a "vagina" it's a vagina. Full stop. The world is crazy if, in order to avoid accusations of transphobia we have to completely distort our references to our own genitalia!

And the reference to selling tampons in male loos? Er...what? So they can put them in their "vaginas"?! Baffled!

Nearly as baffled as when I heard the term "ladystick" to describe a penis....seriously?!

I don't believe there are 2 genders though, I know there are 2 sexes (plus intersex).

Intersex is not a gender, it is related to sex, the clue is in the name.

I don't think gender is a thing (just try to define it!). Conflating sex and gender is a dishonest way to argue.

Binary thinking (two genders), cissexist:
female (including trans male)
male (including trans female)

Binary thinking (two genders), as defined by many trans-people activists:
female (including trans female)
male (including trans male)

Non binary thinking (more than two genders):
female
male
trans male
trans female
intersex
etc

Making trans women go to male-only prisons is binary thinking. Allowing trans women into women-only toilets is binary thinking. The only sensible solution is to adopt non-binary approach to gender.

There are very ver very few trans people. They are pretty much an irrelevance if we are trying to concentate on discrimination against women of all kinds. I don't think we need to bother too much about them.

It would seem I am cissexist, according to that article.

The whole thing reads like a parody.

onahorse, I think many transactivists, like many feminists, want to stop the gendering young children but they are in disagreement over the outcome and the method.

For feminists I'd say the ideal outcome is that everyone is treated equally and gets to have their own areas of interest, favourite hobbies and toys, dress sense and personality regardless of their sex (or skin colour, ethnic background, presence of disabilities etc). The method would be to treat children equally without placing assumptions or expectations on them on the basis of their genitalia. Exceptions made where sex differences are important - I.e. teaching girls about periods and boys about nocturnal emissions.

Whereas the outcome for transactivists, as far as I understand it, seems to be that once children hit a certain age they can decide their gender. Which surely must be based on gender stereotypes? The method: to not tell anyone whether the child is male or female until the child has decided whether it prefers playing with dolls or cars.

Strike through failure

I know this is probably not the right thread, but I've just had a lightly moment, and I am truly not taking the pith.
Surely the way for trans and ancient feminists (such as myself) to find some common ground is to end the gendering of small children, so, if we go back to pale blue knitted kit for everyone, the unisex dungarees of yore mentioned by a PP and suchlike.
Unisex lego and hair cuts for older children, then half the cis-sexist -bollox- stuff is dealt with for everyone

I know it's got the feel of a totalitarian state, but if that article is representative of trans feeling in general that shouldn't be a problem.

I don't really understand the construction of the word cissexism. Is it meant to be a type of sexism, rather than transphobia? If so it sort of suggests that trans people are to be considered a different sex, which I think would be insulting?

The article was particularly patronising, but I read it with interest. The whole concept of cissexism (a word that is begging for a hyphen IMO) is new to me and I'm reading about it so I can learn to sift out the useful advice (practical statements that lessen the chance of me upsetting a person who's transitioning) from theoretical navel-gazing fluff. Upsetting people (whatever their biological status) is something I try to avoid and so I welcome tips on how to reasonably manage that.

It does seem to be a bit of a minefield at the moment though, and I'm wary of getting it very wrong!

I wonder if there a few women on a Saga cruise who have a late-ish menopause offended by the lack of tampon machines? Or if they just shrug and apply a bit of commercial logic...

That's ... actually one of the most insulting articles against women in general I think I've read in a while.

And "newsflash" particular fucks me off.

Posted too soon....

transactivists are keen to point out that there is more to their identity than the external performative aspect of femininity, and that it's the internal sense of self that is key to their "always having been women", however they are presenting. So my position remains the same that I do not possess that internal sense of self-as-woman, therefore cannot be cis, and furthermore, even if I did have this sense inside, I would still take exception to the concept of subjective individual feelings trumping biology.

I see where you're going with that Laura, and it's interesting but I'm still not going to hoist my flag up the cis pole. For me, it's not that I kick against it because I think it is attempting to shoe-horn me into cupcakes and frilly things, when by nature I'm more of a pint of real ale, weight lifting, rugby watching substandard performer of femininity... I kick against it because I fundamentally disagree that I have any internal gender identity - I don't feel any sense of femininity, and the concept leaves me scratching my head. I'm a person until the world reminds me I'm a woman, so for me gender is all external, culturally imposed from the outside, whereas to be described as cis it would need to be internal, wouldn't it?

Yes I know business and all that, but what about people feeeeeelings?!?!

AFAIK, tampon/condom/etc machines are placed in toilets purely to make money.

As a tampon machine in the gents would only potentially sell to about 0.01% of its users, against >50% in the ladies, you'd have to be a bit thick to put one there.

Well. Bear with me here while I try an idea on you: I think it's really important that feminists DO apply the term "cis" to ourselves.

Before you get out the flamethrowers, here's my line of thinking.

We are told that "cis" is the opposite of "trans"

"Trans" now means not just people who want to transition from male to female or from female to male, but anybody who is not comfortable in their "assigned gender."

Gender is a social construct. A load of bollocks. (sorry)

I wrote a piece a couple of years ago in which I said I liked real ale, target shooting, short hair and brogues. Which I do. The very first comment was "this author is probably not cisgender..."

But hang on.

Why shouldn't those be things women do?

I don't want to live in a world where every woman who doesn't live in a world of Heat magazine, pink diets and aspiring to a marriage certificate over a degree certificate, is deemed "not a woman."

I'm not identifying as "on the trans spectrum," despite meeting all the descriptors of someone who is non-binary, because I think that claiming not to be cis is a cop-out. It confirms that "cis women" are all stereotypically feminine. My identity is woman - a woman who was born female and is STILL a woman no matter how short my hair or how masculine my dress or how male-dominated my hobbies.

The biggest challenge to the lunatic fringe of queer politics (and I say that as someone who is queer and has always been if not knee-deep at least ankle-deep in queer politics) is not going to be lots of women confirming their belief that non-conforming women are not cis. It is going to be lots of women challenging it. I'm non-conforming and I'm cis, because I'm not abandoning my identity as a woman just because I'm not girlish.

Call Me Cis. It has a ring to it.

(This post has been brought to you by a slight excess of Hobgoblin Gold. Go on, tell me why I'm wrong. )

I'm not "cis" - it's not a term I'd ever apply to myself & I'd resent it if someone tried to apply it to me.

What gives you that impression, lauwraa. And why would you assume that everyone posting here is cis? I'm not cis, and plenty of other women here have said they aren't cis either.

If by "not cis" you are referring to trans people, the people on this forum who you are criticising are generally very happy to be supportive of them, up until the point where they trample over women's hard won rights.

I read it as showing pictures of your own offspring & daring to tell people "its' a boy/girl" without waiting for he/she to tell you that's definitely her/his sex, despite the fact that that may be measured in years......