Becky Watts murder

There is a lot of blaming of Mothers of this pair, going on in the DM article, comments. Yes I know...

It's disappointing to come on here and see a thread trying to excuse away the actions of a woman who committed manslaughter (etc) of an innocent 16 year old girl.

Who's the victim here again?

Come on now, this thread is making this forum look silly.

Duress isn't a defence to murder in law. Now it might be mitigation when sentencing - I never did understand tariffs for murder sentences where it's mandatory life sentence - very confusing. But then again she was potted for manslaughter where ther is a wide range of sentencing

IT sounds to me like she had a kind of Stockholm syndrome, having been groomed by a dangerous man as a child.

Speaking of the sisterhood, let's remember that Becky's mum, aunties, teachers might be MNers. Some of the language on this thread isn't very mindful of that.

She fucking helped to dismember a 16 year old girl. She loses any sympathy, any sisterhood.

I wouldn't have been surprised at all to see a defence argue that she was coerced. Therefore my guess would be either that her legal team knew about some big hole in that as an argument, or that she insisted on taking the line that she was totally unaware of what happened.

NotDavid, I wasn't talking about her defence, but about what I suspect really happened.

The theory that she didn't claim to have been coerced because she knew it wouldn't work seems flawed - there are several factors pointing to her being in an abusive relationship, and it would be hard to disprove any coercion. I am no lawyer, though, maybe women in abusive relationships are treated like rape victims, in which case her lawyer would have advised her to not even try that.

And of course, it is rather the norm for people in abusive relationships to be in denial. No one wants to believe themselves to be weak, so basing her defence on her having been coerced would have harmed her self-image.

Of course she can be in an abusive relationship and still be guilty - the facts I know so far imply that she's seriously messed up in the head. Still, the fact remains that she doesn't seem to have had anything to gain by this murder, which would to me mean she should be convicted of helping a murderer, but not of manslaughter.

Whether they have feminist leanings or not doesn't come into it.

Fair point, but on the feminist section of the forum, it would seem reasonable to discuss it from a feminist point of view, no?

"As for her participation in disposing of the body ... I think that's easier to explain than the initial involvement, actually. (If there are no other things I'm not aware of?)
The fact that she didn't call the police before the murder may be attributed to either loyalty or fear combined with a lack of moral backbone. After the murder, well, there was a strong incentive to not give him cause to doubt her loyalty."

The problem is that her defence (as far as has been presented in the media) was not that she was coerced or controlled to take part in the crime. Her defence was that she was not involved and knew nothing of what was going in. If she'd admitted involvement but used the first defence then perhaps the outcome might have been different.

NorthernLurker, good point. I didn't know about the violent porn.

As for her participation in disposing of the body ... I think that's easier to explain than the initial involvement, actually. (If there are no other things I'm not aware of?)
The fact that she didn't call the police before the murder may be attributed to either loyalty or fear combined with a lack of moral backbone. After the murder, well, there was a strong incentive to not give him cause to doubt her loyalty.

The judge gave the jury a list of questions to direct their decision in making their verdicts.

Whether they have feminist leanings or not doesn't come into it.

I think it's interesting that she hasn't been convicted of murder under joint enterprise given what's in the public domain.

The relationship was clearly abusive and controlling. I think though, that whilst the nature of the relationship explains why she was involved in the situation in the first place, it doesn't necessarily explain why she continued to participate fully in the consequences of the crime. Consequences which are so far derived from 'normal' behaviour and which were so drawn out in duration.

It's an absolutely horrible case and I do agree that the women involved in these cases - Myra Hindley being the premier example - are judged very harshly, more harshly than male partners would be.

From a feminist pov the stand out issue for me is how a use of violent porn was followed by a horrific crime. Miss Watts was treated as a disposable sexual object by her stepbrother. I think we have to keep our focus on that to be honest.

Elendon - there is no requirement to prove premeditation to order to get a conviction of murder.

Much depends on when that was - there is, these day, an offence of causing death by careless driving.

Had they been driving in a proper manner and - possible - your elderly aunt stepped into the road without looking, then the driver won't have been convicted.

Manslaughter means that that there was no premeditation regarding the death of the person

No it doesn't

She could have been found guilty of murder under joint enterprise couldn't she?

Er, if I've been convicted of manslaughter, yes. With your example, there would have to be something that convinced the jury that the person had died because of something that was within my control - e.g that I was driving too fast or too carelessly - as opposed to the thing I couldn't control, the person walking into the road. One would assume then that the jury in this case thought that there was some element of what Hoares did that she chose to do that contributed to Becky's death.

So is someone who kills a person whilst driving, despite that person having walked out onto the road.

On those facts you won't be convicted of anything - where's Florafox when you need her.

If it was an abusive relationship then manslaughter is the right call IMO