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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Petition to stop trans woman being sent to make prison

165 replies

FriendofBill · 28/10/2015 00:13

www.change.org/p/bath-magistrates-prison-govenor-of-hm-prison-bristol-british-judicial-system-stop-transgender-woman-tara-hudson-from-being-sent-to-an-all-male-prison-in-bristol

I came across this on change.
Contentious issue.
My thoughts are that there needs to be a safe space for women...does that necessarily include who identifies as women?

I know there are some learned types on here, I would be very interested to hear your views.

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Anastasie · 28/10/2015 09:37

Interesting idea about segregating trans prisoners in one particular place.

I'm not sure if that would go down well with the trans movement or not. But it seems like the best option out of all of them tbh.

I have trouble with the legal recognition of a man as a woman, when he still has a penis and so on, anyway. So not the best person to ask. (and nobody did, I realise that)

IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou · 28/10/2015 09:25

But then I guess that can be the case for any prisoner.

Indeed, the prison near us has people travelling across the country to visit inmates. They do try to put prisoners relatively near their home area, but in some cases - sex offenders, young offenders, high risk etc there are fewer options available.....

PoppyBlossom · 28/10/2015 09:25

Does Tara have a penis? That's rather crass, but it would sway my judgement I feel if she was more fully transitioned.

feckityfeck · 28/10/2015 09:22

The article I read about this said it was happening because Tara was still stated as male in her passport. Does anyone know if this still happens for transgender people with a gender recognition certificate?

Because I'd say allowing someone who hasn't had any legal recognition of their transition into the opposite sex prisons has major implications for future cases where all a man would have to say is 'I'm a woman' and he's welcomed in.

TendonQueen · 28/10/2015 09:18

dancingbear I meant it wouldn't be appropriate because presumably then many of them would be a long way from family, friends and potential visitors. But then I guess that can be the case for any prisoner. To what extent do people get shuffled around the country anyway?

Mide7 · 28/10/2015 09:12

"It doesn't matter what she "identifies" herself as, she has a Y chromosome. She will be considerably stronger than the average woman even after receiving hormones. Potentially she could be a danger to women."

I think the current research suggests that after a number of years on hormones transgender women will have lost the physical advantage gained from going through puberty as a male. Obviously doesn't mean they'll be potentially less of a danger.

thedancingbear · 28/10/2015 09:10

Neither a female nor a male prison is appropriate and neither is a national prison for all trans prisoners

You wouldn't need an entire prison. A single wing with a capacity of a few hundred would be entirely sufficient.

MrNoseybonk · 28/10/2015 08:50

"My thoughts are that there needs to be a safe space for women"

You think female prisons are a safe place for women?
It might be that Tara is the one in danger in a female prison.

TendonQueen · 28/10/2015 08:43

Unfortunately I think solitary with supervised time out of that is probably the least worst option. Neither a female nor a male prison is appropriate and neither is a national prison for all trans prisoners.

IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou · 28/10/2015 08:39

Put Tara in solitary, problem solved.

ReallyTired · 28/10/2015 02:10

Perhaps trans people need their own wing of a prison. It might make visiting hard if all te trans criminals in UK were placed together. I am sure that Tara is a risk of being bullied. Tara deserves to be safe even if she is dangerous.

WombOfOnesOwn · 28/10/2015 01:46

Currently in the UK, there are 82,159 men in prison and 3,948 women.

So if we see that a male is 20x (approximately) more likely to be incarcerated than a female, we now need to ask ourselves how many trans prisoners are likely toin the presence of a "trans-friendly" policy that allows MTFs into women's prisonsenter these prisons.

It's hard to know the prevalence of transgender identity but most organizations say it's around .5%, or one in 200. So if 1/200 males in the prison system decide to voice that their gender identity is "woman," we can expect to see 410 MTFs enter women's prisons, which will mean that more than one in every ten prisoners in every UK women's prison will have been born with a penis.

Sex offenses are seven times more likely to be committed by males than femalessee www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/220081/statistics-women-cjs-2011-v2.pdf--14% to women's 2%which means 57 of those male prisoners would be likely to be sex offenders, while only approximately 80 women prisoners total have been convicted of sex offenses. So between 1/3 and 1/2 of sex offenders in British women's prisons would have been born with penises. Since the criminality patterns of MTF people match up MUCH more closely with males than females [http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885%20], these statistics are likely to become reality with a trans-friendly policy.

Is that acceptable? Because these are the numbers we're talking about. Given the prevalence rates we've been told by advocates for trans people, this could get very difficult, very quickly. This is especially true in light of the testimony recently given to Parliament by the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists (hardly an anti-trans organization):

"The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this."

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.pdf

ReallyTired · 28/10/2015 00:52

Sorry I don't have a lot of sympathy. Tara is a violent person and has committed assault. Tara has chosen to behave in a manner that requires a jail sentence.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3291097/Transgender-woman-born-man-sent-male-prison-despite-fears-safety-following-assault-conviction.html

It doesn't matter what she "identifies" herself as, she has a Y chromosome. She will be considerably stronger than the average woman even after receiving hormones. Potentially she could be a danger to women. To be given a custodial sentence the assault must have been serious or Tara has a history of violence. Magistrates don't normally hand out custodial sentences for common assault.

Tara would be vulnerable whether she was in a male prison or a female prison. I don't know what the answer is. Solitary confinement with access to lots of visitors may well be necessary to keep her safe.

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FriendofBill · 28/10/2015 00:14

Note to self: use preview facility

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