Petition to stop trans woman being sent to make prison

yet the female inmates are "vulnerable"?

I'd suggest they're vulnerable to a man sized/built, aggressive inmate with a penis....

Also true, Lurcio. I did my studying back in the dark ages, and when i was researching women in the justice system, it was still OK to just look at born women, so I'm sure I'm a dinosaur or a second wave throwback or something. But still. I doubt that much has changed.

Freshwater beat me to it - women are far more likely to be given custodial sentences for non violent crimes than men are.

I said "other" vulnerable women. I have no doubt that Tara is in some ways very vulnerable.

More than 80% of women in jail are there for non-violent offences like non payment of fines or repeated shoplifting. They are massively more likely to have experienced violence than have committed it.

(I did my dissertation on this by the way. So yeah).

"the potential harm that could be inflicted on Tara by being housed in a male prison, with the potential harm that could be inflicted by Tara, a convicted violent offender, on other vulnerable women if housed in a female prison"

Why is she a "violent offender", and yet the female inmates are "vulnerable"?

Do you think the women are in prison for parking fines?
Many of them will also be in for violent offences, often murder too.

It is a repeat offence. She has more than one conviction for assault by beating. So there is presumably more than one victim.

The press are loving the nudie photos of her, aren't they? In the selfie in the bathroom mirror here - is that a gun she's posing with? Or the tattoo of a gun? Hmmmmm. Interesting.

I don't disagree that individual decisions need to be taken about individuals, but my worry is that in the rush to not discriminate against trans people, women get thrown under the bus.

"Tara still has a penis, that puts the women inmates in a very vulnerable position."

I dont' accept that having a penis makes someone dangerous. Plenty of crooked Tories have penises. I would feel safer sharing a living space with someone like Johnathan Aiken or Neil Hamilton than Tara.

Rape does not necessarily require a penis. Tara has shown that she is dangerous by her behaviour already. She is in jail for a violent crime: assault.

And it will be impossible to even have the debate about balancing the potential harm that could be inflicted on Tara by being housed in a male prison, with the potential harm that could be inflicted by Tara, a convicted violent offender, on other vulnerable women if housed in a female prison, because to attempt to do so is deemed "transphobic".

Tara is an individual and a risk assessment has to be made based on her personality and history of bad behaviour. I feel that the best place to house her should be decided by prison officers, pychologists or maybe a judge.

of THE victim. Sorry, must remember to include all the words

"Do we know who it was she assaulted by the way? Was it a woman? I can't tell from the news reports."

I wondered the same thing. None of the reports I've seen about this make any mention of victim.

If that starts happening in greater numbers, there are bound to incidents that the greater public find shocking and unacceptable.

I think we all just want to be kind to people struggling to find their place in the world, even if we really don't entirely understand. As long as transwomen have fully transitioned, I might personally find it unfathomable, but I realise they are not any additional danger to me in the ladies' room, etc. But, if men with penises are allowed in female spaces, it won't end well. Too much room for the manipulative and unscrupulous to take advantage of the situation.

Do we know who it was she assaulted by the way? Was it a woman? I can't tell from the news reports.

They very much can, Settling. This is where we're headed.

And it will be impossible to even have the debate about balancing the potential harm that could be inflicted on Tara by being housed in a male prison, with the potential harm that could be inflicted by Tara, a convicted violent offender, on other vulnerable women if housed in a female prison, because to attempt to do so is deemed "transphobic".

Can a person with XY chromosomes and a fully functioning penis get their passport changed to say "female" just because they have fake breasts and style themselves in a traditionally glamorous, female manner?

Yes, if a doctor will issue them with a gender reassignment certificate.

Tara still has a penis, that puts the women inmates in a very vulnerable position.

Can a person with XY chromosomes and a fully functioning penis get their passport changed to say "female" just because they have fake breasts and style themselves in a traditionally glamorous, female manner?

Sincere question. Sounds crazy to me.

There are lots of men who would be very vulnerable and at risk in prison. By far the majority of these men realise this and avoid being in that situation including by not getting into bar fights even if drunk or provoked.

There is a lot of information on the trans enquiry page about the situation for trans prisoners.

It isn't a case of solitary or general prison population. There are many males who are vulnerable in prison who are housed in separate wings to the prison population. that decision is often made about gay men for example.

It is not really possible to put everyone who is trans in one wing or prison either. Someone who has a GRC is in a different situation to someone who has not, especially as some trans prisoners without a GRC say they are trans to get access to people to commit crime. It is not the fault of trans people with a GRC who have been through lengthy psychological evaluation to get it to be put in the same category as someone who has been spotted as having nefarious purposes and not passed that evaluation. If there was a trans unit, who was allowed in it would still have to be decided on a case by case basis by the prison service. It isn't the fault of trans people that trans activists keep pushing for gender to be self defined.

If Tara had bothered themselves to get a GRC and have their passport changed to their new sex designation, then they would have been placed within the female prison estate.

Not sure how comfortable that would be for the other inmates to have a male bodied and violent person bunked in with them, but there you go.

Thanks. And no, I'm not comfortable with that idea either, but it seemed to me that this case was pretty cut and dried with the lack of a GRC.

One of the problems with housing Tara within the female estate is that it simply doesn't have the same safeguards as the male estate. Male prisoners are separated into categories based on risk assessments, whereas, to a large extent, females aren't, purely because there are fewer women in prison.

Given that TW display the same levels of criminality as their male counterparts, the tiny number of TW may well end up being overrepresented within the female estate, and pose commensurate risks to the women already incarcerated.

If you're interested, Really, I can ask friends who work within the female estate if they ever get 2 minutes to themselves what they think? I know there is a deep level of cynicism present in every Prison Officer's soul however....

No I assume your right chunky, I'd only really thought about it in a physical strength way. I think the research I was thinking of was done by the IOC.

I don't think that trans people are ever going to fit into a normal prison.

"Interesting idea about segregating trans prisoners in one particular place.

I'm not sure if that would go down well with the trans movement or not. But it seems like the best option out of all of them tbh. "

Its not just the views of trans people which need to be taken into consideration. Other prisoners have to live with Tara.It would be interesting to know how many trans prisoners there are in the UK.

I suppose that trans prisoners vary a lot in the level of danger they pose. A crooked lawyer/ accountant is different to someone one who has banged up for GBH or rape or paedophilia.

It would be interesting to know what prison officers see as the best the solution of where to best incasterate Tara.

The article I read about this said it was happening because Tara was still stated as male in her passport. Does anyone know if this still happens for transgender people with a gender recognition certificate?

If Tara had bothered themselves to get a GRC and have their passport changed to their new sex designation, then they would have been placed within the female prison estate.

Not sure how comfortable that would be for the other inmates to have a male bodied and violent person bunked in with them, but there you go.

To what extent do people get shuffled around the country anyway?

In the male estate, fairly unlikely to be too far from family, capacity and category notwithstanding. In the female estate, the likelihood of being incarcerated a long way from family and children is high. Even if a wing were created in a prison for TW, the chances are that they would be a long way away from family, for the same reasons as women are.

However, if the reason for Tara to be placed away from the male estate is their safety, then solitary within the male or female estate is the best scenario for now. If the reason is validation for Tara's 'womanhood' then I doubt her supporters would accept this.

Mide7 - I don't know if it applies in this case, but I can't see that any amount of hormones are going to shave 4 inches off someone's height - so only some of the physical differences could be mitigated.