Germaine Greer

"We" didn't Decaff. A handful of trans activists with a dodgy knowledge of biology did, and "we" are giving this preposterous notion credence by discussing it. If everyone ignored it this tiny handful of people would be shouting into a dark tunnel with nowhere to go.

How did we get to this point, where it's even conceivable, let alone likely that to state that only women are women is a radical position?

I sat on a table with Catherine Mayer, accompanied my dd to a WEP Youth event. If CM is not on the same page it's going to be a waste of time.

I'm quite saddened that you feel like that, howtorebuild. I share your deep disappointment and am trying to get togethet the wherewithal to challenge it from within- I still feel the WEP is the best bet we're going to get to challenge mainstream politics, and effect real change. I'd rather be part of the movement and have my voice heard than be sitting on the sidelines tutting that they're not doing feminism properly - I'm not saying that's what you're doing personally.

"Gwenhwyfar - I had to leave Cardiff feminist network for that very reason. It's depressing"

I know. What can we do about it though? Start a free-thinking feminist group? I suppose we'd get the same people joining and taking over...

This seemed to be a bit of a shift from the usual Guardian stance though I lost her a bit in places. However good to hear someone point out the realities of womens biology and point out the contrast between the discussions on cisness and microaggressions with the fact that all over the world women are being raped and killed.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/04/its-good-to-be-genderqueer-but-dont-forget-the-sexual-radicals-who-paved-the-way

I am relieved I didn't join the WEP, now.

That's very disappointing about the WEP. I've joined and I was feeling very very hopeful that they could just get some real traction on feminist issues without constant derailment...but...sigh.

I am at peak trans and beyond. I just want women at the centre of my feminism and I don't want us all to squander every last bit of energy and resources we have quibbling over who's in and who's out. It shouldn't be this hard. You don't get Lib Dems muscling into meetings of the Labour Party and demanding they be more centrist to accommodate them. You'd tell them (politely or otherwise) that it was clear you didn't share goals, then wish them well and send them off.

Gwenhwyfar - I had to leave Cardiff feminist network for that very reason. It's depressing

Hopefully this is MN at peak trans now and we can have discussions like we have the last week without constant derailing by 'define this' 'so you're happy with the suicide stats' and 'but my feelings!

That would be lovely. I hope women everywhere reach "peak trans." Enough bs.

Tribble, I wonder if there was ever another campaign like...oh...let's say prostate cancer awareness...that was deemed transexclusionary?

'somebody who isn't content to sit back and let people 're-write history and try to dictate to us who we are and what makes us who we are.'

Hopefully this is MN at peak trans now and we can have discussions like we have the last week without constant derailing by 'define this' 'so you're happy with the suicide stats' and 'but my feelings!'

We all have feelings, we're all valid, no ones ever pussy-footed around women and once again there's a group expecting us to bend over to accommodate and validate them.

Trans activists consistently challenge feminists over trans issues rather than other groups. It is pretty much impossible to go into any feminist space now without trans activists wanting it to be about them.

How arrogant !
Thank God we have women like GG around - somebody who isn't content to sit back and let people 're-write history and try to dictate to us who we are and what makes us who we are.

I just had a look at mobile.twitter.com/catherine_mayer/tweets Catherine Mayers. Twitter and she retweeted a link to this. www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2015/10/what-row-over-banning-germaine-greer-really-about

Ah ok thanku.

They supported a transgender woman being put in a woman's prison therefore they are not supporting or protecting the women already in the prison.
They retweeted the petition.

mobile.twitter.com/WEP_UK/tweets look at the retweet on 27 Oct.

Sorry. Howtorebuild, what?

I'm interested in WEP. They are not supporting women in prison? Or are they not supporting a transgender woman being in a women's prison?

It's not helpful that the hope we had in the WEP is not supporting women in prison from Tara.

So take for example of the Twitter campaign that was used to highlight issues surrounding access to menstral products in the third world, that was deemed transexclusory if I remember. The changing of language within maternity documents in America where it's now pregnant indivduals and not women anymore. The case of the swimming pool changing rooms that was brought up a while back with the parents who complained that their daughters had been kicked out of the changing rooms due to the presence of one older transgendered female.

There doesn't seem to be a common sense measured approach here. It makes me angry, it makes me see red that one group trumps another. That shouldn't happen. These things should be thought about, and looked at properly.

Personally, I don't care if a transgendered individual uses the same bathroom as me. But on the issue of safe spaces, and issues such as the Twitter campaign and similar. It makes me angry and displeased that we can't even talk about such issues without getting shut down. How are we supposed to get anywhere if we don't talk about these things?

I understand that changes do need to be addressed, but it does feel like women are being brushed to the side with a 'shh! These people are more important than you.'

mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0SR2IN20151103?utm_source=Facebook

Changes in USA reported today.

Gwen that is really nuts. Have they not grasped the basic tenet of FEMINism? Trans people are a tiny minority, their issues are not the same as those of women, and so how has feminism come to this? I am honestly baffled by it. One would think that women had nothing else to fight for.

"This shit is creeping its way into every mainstream womenss group there is."

It's depressing. About 90% of the comments on Cardiff Feminist Network's FB page is about trans issues. Anyone who disagrees is pilloried as the group is trans inclusive. The trans inclusivity trumps anything else. I don't necessarily disagree with them, but they are impossible to debate with.

you often find that the differences are minimal.

The trans community will still latch on to the 'minimal' statement and say it's still inconclusive.

Several years ago, when Julia Gillard was prime minister in Australia and Quentin Bryce was Gov General, there was a huge amount of gendered abuse thrown around by men in power. Gillard was a 'barren atheist' a 'lying bitch' , a 'witch' etc.

A well know old, white, right wing, male shock jock made a declaration on air one day that women were "destroying the joint!" (the joint being, Australia).

Soon after, a Facebook page was started. It was called Destroy the Joint and its purpose was " 'for people who are sick of the sexism dished out to women in Australia, whether they be our first female Prime Minister or any other woman'.

It's brilliant. They keep us up to date with violence against women stats, call out public identities on gender based nonsense etc. They are a well run and articulate group and have over 70,000 followers.

Yesterday I was dismayed to see they had shared a well written satirical article, basically thumbing it's nose at the ridiculous standards placed on women, just for being women.

I wasn't dismayed at the article. I was dismayed at DtJ for describing it as cis-centric and suggesting it's followers broaden the scope and suggest how people who identify as women could be included in the discourse.

This shit is creeping its way into every mainstream womenss group there is. Soon I fear that those of us who are rejecting (or even just questioning) the trans narrative will be on the fringes. Just a bunch of bigoted TERFs.