So Owen Jones is as full of shit as ever he was...

Cordelia Fine's "Delusions of Gender" does not accept differences between male and female brains.

I think there are differences in parts of the brain which are formed by hormones when in utero and during puberty which affect part of it and form a structure which is the type found in a person of the opposite sex.

This is speculation, isn't it? There's no evidence for it. Twins are exposed to the same environment in utero but there are twins where one is transgender and the other is not.

The presence of a different structure in males and females should not mean men and women should be treated differently.

In the 19th and early 20th century, when it was believed female and male brains were different, women certainly were treated differently and as a direct result of this theory. It is very naive to think that a view of female brains being different from male brains would not result in women being treated worse than men.

The ideas presented are that we did initially believe that we were one gender and women were inferior (malformed) men who didn't have the heat in the womb to "pop" put or penis - this has now been proven false.

This was how long ago? There have been centuries where this was not believed to be the case and knowing that it is false is not evidence that sex is socially constructed. That seems to me to be very shoddy thinking. It's worrying that is being taught to students.

Many intersex people do not consider themselves a third sex.

sacredheart do the students challenge these ideas or is that not allowed?

The ideas presented are that we did initially believe that we were one gender and women were inferior (malformed) men who didn't have the heat in the womb to "pop" put or penis - this has now been proven false.

We have intersex and hermaphrodite children born that we now claim is a defirmity but this idea is slowly moving (Germany now allowing a third sex option on birth certificates). So it's not impossible to assume that instead of assuming that intersex are "mistakes" we may in future accept that they are another sex.

I point out (as I know how you love a debate Flora) I am relaying concepts being taught, I'm no where near sure how I feel about them.

It was reasonable to think the earth was flat until evidence was found that it was not. The first evidence was the spherical shadow cast on the moon during an eclipse. Many people didn't believe this but ultimately it was proved conclusively by circumnavigation.

On the other hand we have ample evidence going back to the beginning of humankind that we are a sexually dimorphism species. A human with a penis does not produce eggs or bear young and a human with a vagina cannot impregnate anyone. What is the evidence that sex is constructed? There is none.

So in fact a better analogy would be that people are beginning to believe the earth is flat and the spherical earth is a construct.

Only in social sciences, thankfully. Although, it's bad enough that sex fluidity is being taught in that context, where it's demonstrably false.

Full disclosure, I'm an ally of trans* people as well. I wholeheartedly believe they should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other member of society. I want them to have equal access to the healthcare they need. I want them to be able to live happy and fulfilled lives, free from violence and suicide. I'm just more concerned with male violence, and, until men can sort their violence out, I'd be a lot happier if male bodied people weren't wandering about in female spaces.

This is an interesting topic as in my sociology and social policy degree my lectures are looking at gender and owen's statement is definitely the line our lecturers take. That binary gender and sex is commonsense knowledge (shaped around religious and previous logic) to be questioned as much as when people knew it was "an absolute fact" the earth was flat.

This in mind I think more and more young people will be raised believing in multiple sex and gender and those who don't will become the "wrong side of history".

Some on here may know I am definitely an ally of trans*people (full disclosure to avoid the obligatory dirt digging). I think as long as people are respectful your personal take on gender and sex are your own and your preference of partner is also your own. But, I thought it was an interesting point to make that the academics teaching young minds are reinforcing these new ideas of sex and gender.

He also believes that men need porn. Need it. Can't survive without seeing women being abused for their titillation. When some women asked him why he thinks it's ok for women to be abused in this way for the dick-tingles of men, stated that those women were literally erasing his gay identity, and that gay porn didn't abuse women because it abuses men, I assume

Utterly failed to acknowledge that the majority of men are straight, and that the porn they need is going to have women being abused for dick-tingles, because he's gay. And anyone who asks him about those women being abused for the porn he believes men need is homophobic.

So either, he's a misogynist, or not very bright.

What was his response when he was asked why he supported the person who believes it's is transphobic for lesbians to not want to be with pre op trans people?

He didn't give one, he merely blocked anyone who suggested it.

When has he been misogynistic and homophobic against lesbians? I'm interested as I've never seen him be like that.

On Twitter. See above.

He sees zero irony in his support of a TW who says that lesbians, in refusing to have sex with pre-op TW are transphobic, and yet when asked if he would perform cunnilingus on a pre-op TM started getting very angry because he's gay, and suggesting that gay men might do that is literally erasing gay men. Perfectly fine to expect lesbians to fellate TW though, not erasing in any way at all. Nuh-uh.

Woman/female and man/male are categories of biological sex. Gender can mean either:

• a polite word for sex
• a sense of internal identity
• roles or characteristics socially constructed as appropriate for women or men (feminine / masculine).

It's not possible to change sex. I don't believe in an internal gender identity and the third is a social construct.

Trans people should be treated with dignity and respect but that doesn't include pretending that they are actually the other sex and there is no difference between a person who translations to live as a member of the opposite sex and a member of that opposite sex.

Why do you not think trans people should be considered the gender they feel they are?

He said transwomen are women and anyone who says they are not female will be on the wrong side of history.

What was his response when he was asked why he supported the person who believes it's is transphobic for lesbians to not want to be with pre op trans people?
When has he been misogynistic and homophobic against lesbians? I'm interested as I've never seen him be like that.

Owen Jones is a dickhead, he honestly believes he is some how immune to misogyny because he is gay.

At some point we need to talk frankly about misogyny within the gay community.

He's a dick.

Owen Jones is such an idiot. He is outraged at the thought of a gay man being asked about cunnilingus on a transman ("transmen are men" said Owen Jones never) but lesbians are hateful and on the wrong side of history for not accepting penis as female. Either he is profoundly stupid or a hypocrite or a liar, as are his acolytes in the comments section.

ftw = for the win. It's a gaming expression.

and OJ is a fucking lefty skidmark of a man, and lesbophobic to boot.

I used to like him too. Can anyone tell me what FTW means? I'm 28 and sure I should know that one but I'm not that sociable.

I think that's known as damning with faint praise!

I suppose the best that can be said about him is at least he isn't Ally Fogg.