Jack Monroe on being non-gender binary

Gender is not innate like sex btw, it's a social construct.

If anyone could explain that to it better than me I would be grateful

In your opinion. I happen to disagree.

As the person doesn't get to decide I am going to refer to you with the "wrong" pronoun. I think I will choose "it" for you. Because your wishes are irrelevant and mine are more important; that is essentially what you are saying. The old "I'm natural, you're unnatural" argument that gets used until society cops on (see gay rights etc etc).

Eh? How did you get that from what I said? I look like a woman no matter what I am wearing. That is not "conforming to the norm" it is a reflection of the fact that a person's sex is generally obvious as a result of their biological sex characteristics. I don't get to choose this.

My point is that your statement about owning identity is nonsense. The statement has no meaning.

So you're ok because you conform to the norm and never mind any body else who might be different eh Flora?

Just out of interest have you ever been married Flora? And did you change your surname? Or your title (eg Mrs)?

By own your identity I mean you get to choose how you present to the world and what name and pronouns people use to address you because that is your right as an individual

I don't agree with this at all. I am obviously a woman no matter how I "present" and society treats me as a woman, a member of the female class. I don't choose that any more than I chose my name nor how the English language uses pronouns to identify male or female.

Thanks Burrito :)

Interesting idea sakura and all your examples are misogyny but it does happen to other groups too. Deliberately calling someone the wrong pronoun (and I mean wrong by what they designate themselves) it is always meant as an insult.

For example, I've been referred to as "he" on threads where a poster has tried to rubbish me instead of disagreeing with me. It happens a lot on Mumset where (arguably) the default and dominant assumption is that posters are women.

Of course it must happen to some groups more than others and in different contexts and to different degrees but I cannot think of a single occasion where someone deliberately chooses to address someone by the "wrong" pronoun to be anything other than to insult and/or hurt someone. And that's regardless of the sex or gender of the people involved.

Bad behaviour and disrespectful treatment of others is always wrong and doesn't diminish the lived experience of others who may have slightly different experiences with the same intent to hurt, belittle and insult.

I don't feel female and I don't feel male, I have interests that are both stereotypically female and stereotypically male but I just see them as 'my interests'.
Isn't almost everyone "non-binary" in this case? It seems like some of the only people who are truly binary about their gender are transgender people

Here's the thing; calling a boy a "girl" is a major insult. If a man calls another man a "woman" he's mocking him. The female gender are objects of daily ridicule.

So in light of this, some women would say, well the pronoun "she" should be regarded as an honorific, women shouldn't be ashamed of the fact they are subject to constant shame and ridicule for being female. And so "she" can't be interchangeable or equal to "he". It means something entirely different.

Now, whether we wear high heels or not or "think like a man" (whatever that means--- women are bright articulate and frighteningly intelligent, which is "thinking like a woman" as far as I'm aware) should've have any influence on the "she".

All it means is there are lots of different kinds of "shes" in this world.

I read some of this and thought, well that's like me. If pushed, I would say I have a non-binary gender, because that seems to be where I fit within the terminology that is used. I don't feel female and I don't feel male, I have interests that are both stereotypically female and stereotypically male but I just see them as 'my interests'.

It's the jump from non-binary gender to being neither a woman nor a man that I don't understand. But I presume this is where gender dysphoria comes into it, a feeling of 'wrongness' for want of a better phrase, which I don't have.

But reading it makes me feel more strongly that gender is bollocks, and think why can't people just wear what they want to wear and do what they want and call themselves whatever they want and anyone who thinks someone is not ladylike or manly enough can just fuck off. It's not trans people that should feel they have to change, it's the rest of society that has the problem. I just want to say 'it's not you, it's them. And actually yes, you are a special snowflake, don't change yourself to try and fit in with their crappy boxes'. Having said that, I do accept that life is easier if you conform in some way.

MovingOnUp, you've said what I was trying to say in a much less stroppy way thank you!

A bit ot, but I actually think if they/their took off in general as a replacement for s/he hers/his for everyone it would be great. I don't see that it's relevant to most people in most circs (given that I'm in a long term relationship, so not out on the pull) whether I'm a woman or a man.

And yes, I agree with a pp that it is perfectly possible for language to change in that way. Just as it's really common these days to refer to a fire fighter / police officer / bin collector (ie not fireman/ policeman/ bin man) whereas when I was younger it would have been definitely only something weirdy lefty types would have done.

By own your identity I mean you get to choose how you present to the world and what name and pronouns people use to address you because that is your right as an individual.

I would think (like me) you'd probably find it at least odd and more likely disrespectful if people started calling you he instead of she or even "it". If people started using a different name to the one you'd them told was your name that would be rude - you just have to look at some of the threads on here where people have had their name shortened without their consent to see how it upsets people.

Our identities are chosen by us to a greater or lesser extent even if they are influence by society (typically pronouns) or our parents (typically names). We can choose to accept or reject those (lots of people go by a different name to their full birth name) and decide our own identity with things like how we present ourselves (our "look") what title we use and other very important signifiers of identity. We choose those, we own them.

Primarily it's just good manners to address someone in the way they have asked you to regardless of the wider implications of disrespecting someone's perfectly legal wishes.

Yes, discussion is fine, and I think this is a very interesting one (and still constructive and civilised, which is nice). I think it helps that many of us taking different positions to gender identity on this thread actually rather like and admire Jack - I certainly do- so the irritation and hostility that appears when we talk about gender identity issues in relation to certain other people isn't there.

'Why shouldn't Jack own their identity? You own yours Countess so why shouldn't they?
What gives you the right to decide?'

I can't answer unless you explain what you mean by 'own your identity'. What does 'own' mean? Does it mean have the power to control what everyone says about you and the terms in which you are discussed, or just not be stopped from living your life in accordance with it? (And are those things separate anyway?) Does 'identity' in this context mean all aspects of your identity or is gender qualitatively different?
It seems to be clear to you what you mean by the deceptively simple phrase 'own your identity' but I genuinely do not have a clue what you mean by it and I would like to answer your question but as it stands I can't!

You will need to unpack what you mean by 'own your identity', Movingonup. In what way?

I haven't said anyone can't discuss things. I'm just challenging some view points I disagree with. I believe that would count as discussion :)

Now that's an interesting point Windy. And one borne out of an actual argument rather than "different to me is wrong" which a lot of this seems to be on this thread.

I suppose I don't feel threatened personally because I'm only a feminst until we have equality and feminism will be redundant will probably never happen. Equality would by default include all groups including non-binary identities.

I can also see as a marginalised person (a woman) the impact of othering so I can't really do that to others and deny their right to an identity because it is different to mine.

So is it a threat or just different? I feel the latter because I'm still a woman and still a feminist and the issues haven't gone away just because some people do not identify as women. There have always been those that don't identify as women - men - and that doesn't stop me being a feminist or a woman.

I'm still a woman and still a feminist and Jack's decisions and those of people like them don't change that at all.

It's fairly obvious that no-one on here is saying whether or not Jack has a mastectomy is anything to do with us - if it's what she wants, I hope it works out for her. I just don't see why we are forbidden from noting that wanting one looks like an antagonistic attitude towards her body.
Are we not allowed to discuss the stuff she has made public in her New Statesman article?

You will need to unpack what you mean by 'own your identity', Movingonup.

Surely wanting a mastectomy for non-medical reasons counts as having an antagonistic attitude towards one's body? If not, I don't know what does.

But that's Jack's right and has zero impact on anyone else. We all should have the right to have autonomy over our own bodies. Isn't that rule #1 of feminism?

Not Jack in particular, but the idea of identifying as non-binary has huge repercussions for feminism. Whilst Jack's individual identity doesn't directly affect me as an individual, the concept of a non-binary identity in general does affect the idea of a female identity. And that's something that affects me - a female.

Why shouldn't Jack own their identity? You own yours Countess so why shouldn't they?

What gives you the right to decide?

Surely wanting a mastectomy for non-medical reasons counts as having an antagonistic attitude towards one's body? If not, I don't know what does.

'I don't know why it matters to anyone other than Jack Monroe how Jack Monroe chooses to identify and what pronouns they prefer?'

Not at all unless we are being told what language we must use when discussing her. What Jack calls herself is her issue. What we call her is ours.

Bugger. I put her when I meant "their" and "them".

Still, I am trying and learning at least :)

Fgs there's some real tragedy going on in the world without having to worry about whether you've offended someone who has deliberately taken a convoluted and antagonistic stand about their own gender.

What an odd assumption to make. Why have you decided that Jack's feelings and attitude to their own body and identity are "convoluted and antagonistic" rather than just, I dunno, being her feelings that matter to her?

They could only be consider convoluted and antagonistic if they had the slightest bearing on anyone else which of course they don't. Jack's identity does not diminish or impact on your identity, my identity or anyone else's in any way. They just are; Jack just is.

I don't know why it matters to anyone other than Jack Monroe how Jack Monroe chooses to identify and what pronouns they prefer? It makes no odds to anyone on this thread other than perhaps having to make a bit of effort to remember to use the pronouns requested.

I will happily admit it does feel a bit awkward and clunky to use "they" instead of "he" or "she" but do you know what? That's my problem. I'll get over it and get used to it.

As for the crap about "language doesn't work that way" do you know anything about linguistics or language development? Because that is exactly how language evolves and develops.

I also thought the "special snowflake" bit in the op is quite offensive. It clearly matters to Jack and clearly has bog all impact on you to accommodate Jack's wishes because how Jack chooses to identify is about them not about you. So get over it and show some respect by respecting Jack's wishes as a person to choose how they are addressed and regarded. It won't make your life harder but might make their's easier and more pleasant so that has to be A Good Thing.