Could we have a talk about perceptions of SAHP?

I'm with Grazia. Up your rates. Refuse to work for less. You attract better clients, who can afford you and don't quibble. You feel ultra motivated to produce good results when you are properly rewarded. you don't feel like a drudge. Obviously, not all of us can command Grazia's rates, but there's no reason we should ever command less than the going rate for men in the same profession. And if we are very good at what we do, we should charge the top going rate that men command. If we're starting out or not the best, we can get better and put our rates up as soon as we improve.

Nor should we ever work extra hours for free. I have clients who love to email me fifty times to discuss a project. I invoice for those hours at the keyboard too. They don't get an obliging nice downtrodden woman to give up her time for free. They get a business professional who charges for every 15 mins she is taken away from her kids.

this has derailed the SAHM status of the original thread, but I feel so strongly that SAHMs should be prized but aren't, not least by their own partners. the best solution is to be a PT WAHM on the top rates you can charge for what you do best. Unless you have hoards of kids, if you get organised there are hours in the day for this. It's not that SAHMs don't use their brains, but that they lose their status, and they are so economically dependent and vulnerable to the foibles of their partner. This is what I find distasteful about SAH motherhood. Making mud pies and junk modelling and helping with homework and never missing an assembly or prize day etc is the best stuff in the world.

Grazia

I totally agree about being financially dependant on a man, i wouldn't want to have taken that risk, although I am dh secretary
I don't think it's necessarily being a sahp that puts you in this position as if you are married you have far more protection.
One of our properties is in my name the other is jointly owned.
The business is in both names and we are both 50% shareholders.
Any savings are in my name too, because I have always managed the finances, it seemed obvious.

I am all for choice. Money and security are not the aim of everyone. I don't want to breed clones for children but in general if you can spread your risks and for women in particular don't be financially depending on a man as (see divorce threads) they do tend to bugger off with their secretary to Thailand with all the money - or some do.

On university that's a bit of a side issue. I just wanted the children to graduate debt free as I did as my parents chose to give me the equivalent of the full grant at university. I don't like the ide aof children starting out adult life with debts. However ther eis a perfectly good opposite view that children only appreciate an education and choose a sensible degree if they know they are going to have to pay it. My daughters bought in their 20s and I provided a bit of help and am doing so for my son next year and hopefully the younger ones if I'm not dead by then. They all know there is no guarantee of that however and that my only commitment was to pay for their education - the one thing the state cannot later steal from you.

Right back to job number 3 of the day now. At least it's peaceful on Saturdays working at home.

This is brilliant - I can't have a conversation of this scope IRL as many people just don't get it . They either tell me to suck it up and stop whining, or they tell me my children are suffering for my career. Like I said, very binary.

The thing with my female bosses is that they got their flexible working years ago, in different jobs. They now have grown up children and so are working normal hours.

Gracia

No truer words spoken
We found that our eldest didn't want the money though and preferred to do it all himself, not accepting a penny post 16 education.
I'm not sure about ds2 yet he's still at home, but already well on the way for first deposit for his own dooer upper at 20.
No idea about dd yet as she is only 11, but she is carving out her career already and knows what she wants.
I agree that paying off the mortgages was a huge help and for us it's great as we are now deciding whether to invest in more properties with funds left when we downsize.
I think for us though we had no risk as dh wasn't employed, so could come and go as he pleased. Even music teaching in schools he was self employed and as a specialist was not easily replaced.
I still believe it's what works best for you though and there is no best or right way, but what works for you.
I didn't want to use childcare and dh didn't want to have to do work he didn't want to do. What we saved in childcare and cleaners over the years, has meant dh hasn't needed to earn so much as the dc grew older.

The legal issue is that there is only a right to request flexible working. There is no legal right to be given it and in many jobs it isn't an option.

I like MrsM think a solution for career women is to increase your rates. I have just done an hour for a client (Sat morning - teenagers only just getting up) and that was £360 from home by email. There is no need to sell yourself short as far too many women do. In fact I often tell potential clients where else to go if they cannot afford my rates.

When our children were smaller we both worked full time and their father who also taught music did weekend working as did I and we both juggled that. I would not have wanted one of us to work part time as that is financially risky in case one of us later lost our job. IT is best to spread risk. However for 20 years we both rushedh ome from work as soon as we could because like most parents we like to see our children, read them stories, tuck them into bed, supervise a bit of homework and music practice with children etc.

Then when children reach the age iof my teenagers it is all dead easy of course and if you've preserved a career you adore in the mean time you can put it as much time as you choose to it then .

For many men and women your years of highest spend are when housing you and your children and funding them. My youngest will be at university in 2 years' time. Once they have left expenses will go right down and after 30 years I just paid off the mortgage. It has been worth it. They never regret I changed 3 nappies a day not 13 but they are glad I can ensure they graduate debt free and help with purchase of a first property..... never under estimate how much children appreciate your money as much as your cuddles.

Slippery

As you probably realise I know diddly squit about the workplace as even pre dc I ran my own business.
But, as Duck suggests could you not take it up with HR. I am so that in this day and age it is other women who are holding some women down. It's unforgivable really.

Duck

I think it depends on personal situations tbh. My dh didn't cut down any hours when ours were little, in fact he worked longer hours as we needed more money to pay the bills.
As the dc grew older he was able to concentrate his career in the area he wanted to work rather than just financial gain.

That's great mrs molesworth.

Slippery, could you challenge the flexible work "no's" with your managers' manager or HR? Especially if it was agreed for others at the same level in the relatively recent past.

Interesting that men being the higher earner is often cited as a reason we decide to work PT or SAH yet even where women earn more before DC and/or have better financial prospects, often either the woman works less or both partners work FT. men won't risk the career hit?

mrsmole, sounds like you got it well nailed! That's pretty inspiring actually.

newlife, they'd tell me to fuck off and that there were plenty of others who would take my place. Sadly, that's probably true. At least my current job is temporary, so I'm not stuck there indefinitely!

SlipperyJack

What would happen if you pointed out the unfairness of this to your boss.
Surely, they can't refuse flexibility if they had it themselves.

There's no way I'd stand being treated like that, having my hours determined by somebody else. I guess that's why I don't work.

Depending on your field, though, there's no reason why a downgrade is the natural progression. When we married, DP had a great job and earned far more than me. That continued until DC were born, when he was made redundant and went freelance. It was a huge shock to his ego, and having been employed for twenty years he simply didn't really 'get' the degree to which you need to network.

I already had years of experience of freelancing and a much more proactive attitude to it. Now I earn more than him, even though I work part time, as being there for DC is my top priority. I love being a WAHM; as soon as DC are home from school I stop work, unless there's a big contract to tight deadline.

Being so keen to be around for DC made me very picky. I kept raising my fees and people kept paying them. (I also diversified to include a similar field that paid well and had a steady stream of clients by word of mouth.) I refused to earn less because it meant fewer hours with DC. The result is that I have grown in confidence massively in my career, and never think twice about requesting more money or as much as men get. The strong SAHM desire I had actually helped shape my freelance career.

The other thing that massively pisses me off is seeing professional women, who got increased flexibility when their kids were young, denying it to others subsequently. I've just changed jobs; my previous (female) boss worked reduced/flexible/remote hours, but when I asked for one day a week WFH or a 4pm finish, she refused. No real business reason why. Current boss (also female) cheerfully admitted that when her kids were primary age, she finished at 3pm. I asked if I could do 5 days instead of 4, 9-3.30 instead of 9-5.15 (which wouldn't be hugely different hours total) - nope. Oh well.

Indeed. I've already downgraded, even though I earn more FTE than DH, because academic jobs in his field are in such short supply that he has to keep the one he's got.

That's tricky then!

Have seen this happen a fair bit where we live and it's almost always women quitting or downgrading their work.

duck, agreed re the commute. It's horrible! Thing is, DH and I work in opposite directions IYSWIM? Nearer his work there isn't the concentration of jobs for me, and vice versa. We've gone over every variant and keep ending up no further forward. I'd go self-employed but the red tape surrounding that is horrendous.

That's a great idea for a new firm slippery!

Lots of people SAY their DH would have gone PT or SAH if X, Y and Z. But the men rarely actually do it.

Slippery jack, I think commuting makes things even harder. We coped better with work and Dc before we moved to commuterville (despite commuterville having some other advantages). Hang in there! Could your H go PT for example? Or perhaps when DC are bigger you could go FT but more locally, or move closer to work?

PS I had a mad idea last night on the journey home - if any other lawyers would like to explore setting up a firm where everyone works properly part time with no catsbum faces from colleagues, let me know....

I don't understand how the term handing over can be loaded but hey hum. It's what I believe happens when you take them to nursery and often people talk about hand over. Maybe you should complain to the nurseries.

Personally, I never felt the need to hand over to dh, if he was at home he was the parent in charge and when I was, ditto.
If we were/are both here then we are both equally responsible for them.
It isn't rocket science.

It's a simple case of what makes you happiest imo, and great that so many women get to choose these days.
For my family it has worked out far better to have a sahp, but dh would equally have been the sahp during the day. As long as he could have continued his freelance work he wouldn't have cared.
Surely everybody chooses the situation that serves them and their family best.

This thread has been really interesting reading. I'm currently struggling with work and parenthood: I work 4 days per week (legal profession), with a long commute. DH is f/t (academia) with an even longer commute.

On the days I work, it's a constant battle against the clock and childcare. I'm viewed as a second class citizen at work because of being p/t, but it's not offset by a better home life balance, except on my non-working day. I am constantly exhausted, as is DH - so when we are at home, with two similarly exhausted DCs, we're all grumpy and snappy.

I feel utterly trapped, and so fed up that in my profession at least, the choice is essentially binary - work full time, or don't work at all. I feel that I'm unreasonable for wanting a job and family time! Because after all, to my employer I'm just a cost centre; my domestic circumstances are not their problem. I'm also aware that I'm lucky to have a part-time role at all, as they are rarer in the legal profession than the proverbial rocking horse shit. DH may be able to change his hours a bit, but the improvement would probably be minimal.

After much angsting, I've concluded that I can't make work and parenthood balance. So I either pack it in and leave myself financially vulnerable, or I keep slogging on and being miserable. That's a shit choice. And all of it is a feminist issue IMO.

There's a difference between office-based journalism which is often completely family unfriendly, and a bit of freelancing. However tight your deadline, you can still supervise an ill child or dump a toddler in front of the television. It is simply not the same as knowing you have to catch the 7.21 and your dh is in Timbuktu.

Well it depends- freelance journalism (like sahm) covers a massive range- I said I was a freelance journalist for a while - it wasn't hard but then we weren't reliant on just my (very low) income.

Well maybe, but I was a freelance feature writer for years when the kids were wee, to fit around my family. Yes, it is hard work drumming up business. It depends whether you are trying to pay the mortgage or provide a useful second income, I think.

Rhoda, journalism is amongst the least "family friendly" occupations, more's the pity, and freelancing in any firld is no picnic. The freelancers I know have it hard because they often have too little or too much work, worry that declining work or not being seen to "deliver" will lose clients, and have to either fit in work when they can (eg nights) or pay for regular childcare for time for work they might not have!