Radio 5 phone in on consent at 9.00am

"And finding reasons why some men shouldn't have to go."

They don't need to give you a reason for not going.

"Self-selecting whether or not to attend a compulsory workshop about such an important subject is pretty determined behaviour."

No it's not, it's just a choice made on the part of the individual that the workshop isn't for them. Surely the only determined behaviour would be the people who persisted in trying to make them go?

And I'd have zero problem attending a similar workshop.

Even with all my learning and personal experience, I wouldn't be arrogant enough to suggest that I know everything about the subject.

"This is not what a rapist look like" is a whole other category of stupid as all fuck.

Especially as that is exactly what some rapists look like.

Rapists aren't born with "I'm a rapist" shaped birthmarks after all. They hail from all races, colours, creeds and walks of life.

Self-selecting whether or not to attend a compulsory workshop about such an important subject is pretty determined behaviour. You'd have to be pretty invested in nice middle class white boys protecting their reputations not to understand that.

There was a lady talking on the same radio programme yesterday, alongside the man who scared the life out of me, and she was referring to that dervel, that it was a whole community effort, that it was about people, male and female, feeling confident to intervene if they saw a man behave in a sexually aggressive way to a woman in public. The sort of behaviour that is often written off as 'a bit of fun' and women who object to it are belittled as joyless and uptight. I'm 40 now, and I wish that when I was 20 I had known that I didn't actually have to accept men groping me, that it wasn't meant to be flattering and it wasn't a bit of fun. That grabbing my boobs in public and commenting on the size of them (which made me want to burst into tears) wasn't a compliment, it was an assault.

I think the only decent point is that women should attend too.

I must confess I'm now incredibly curious as to what one learns at a consent awareness workshop, has anyone actually been on one?

In all the coverage over this University workshop seems to boil down to some guy being affronted, not even going and writing such in a student magazine. If I'd felt as he does I'd at least go to the thing to construct a rebuttal of the workshop. As it stands he's probably wasted more of his time not going to this thing and writing about it than if he'd sucked it up and gone.

I'm also not sure where a compulsorary workshop generates an implicit assumption "I am a man and therefore are a rapist". To be honest I've sat through innumerable health and safety briefings and not once learnt anything that wasn't already common sense to me in the first place. I would never once countenance not going or throwing a strop over it, because the general fuckwittery of the human race seems to indicate we need health and safety seminars otherwise there will be legions of people hammering nails in their faces whilst going up the wrong kinds of ladder. I can't imagine a consent seminar being hugely different in there will always be people that could benefit from having it spelt out to them.

In the interests of trying to be constructive I'd like my ideal consent workshop to go into what I can do to make society a little bit safer and kinder. Like what should I look out for to keep friends (or even strangers for that matter!) safe. What should I be aware of in terms of general conversation so if the topic comes up in mixed company if unbeknownst to me there is a victim present they feel wider society doesn't blame them?

"There is actually no good reason for a man to determinedly refuse to attend a course and his persistence in doing so, on the basis that he feels he doesn't need it, strikes me as a good indicator that he is both arrogant and self indulgent. "

Oh you're talking about a man who would persistently refuse to attend a course despite only being asked once? Sorry I thought you were meaning a man who said no, you kept asking, and he kept saying no, crossed wires sorry. In this case then I do agree he may be such a person who would benefit from a course. I say that because if you repeatedly say "I'm not going!" to someone who just asked you once if you would consider going, it seems a bit odd. Sort of like protesting too much in a way. You've already said no and the subject has been dropped, so to repetaedly bring it up again in the sense of "I'm not going...im not you know, im not going, i hope you know I'm not going" is definitely very strange.

"His affront at being asked trumps the very obvious need of younger adults to communicate consent much more effectively."

No it doesn't. He isn't preventing adults who feel they could do with a workshop on consent from going to that workshop. He's not trumping their need to be educated in what consent means, or getting in the way of them receiving them knowledge.

"The determination that you shouldn't go is a good indicator that you probably need to."

Sorry but that just seems like all you're doing is shutting down discussion on the subject. If a man disagrees with what you say, you take the disagreement itself as proof that you are right and that man needs to go on a course. Determination not to go isn't an indicator that you should imo, it just means you don't want to go to the course.

"If they thought consent was more important than their own feelings, they'd either go."

I don't think it's a case of putting their need above everyone elses. It's their choice whether they go, and you don't need them to go, so why shouldn't it be up to them whether they do go? What if they didn't want to go to the course, but agreed that consent was more important than their own feelings?

"Female needs and boundaries coming second to male desire... Rather reminds one of something, doesn't it?"

Wanting a man to go to a workshop is not a female need, so he's not putting your needs second with his desire not to go. I'm not saying that this course is pointless, I can see it being very useful in some cases. Some men would be happy to go for whatever reason, maybe they already feel they know enough but will go on the off chance that they pick up something, others may not be totally confident in their ability to tell when someone is consenting and would like to explore the issue of consent in a safe environment where they can learn about things. But there are others who would chose not to go, and that refusal to go can't be treated as an indicator that they should go imo. Not going to a workshop about consent doesn't mean you oppose the right to consent/not consent itself, it just means you aren't going a workshop on it.

Sorry Chunky, I could see where the driving analogy was heading, but Don't laboured it somewhat.

Every year, I have to do an equality and diversity refresher. I am all about E&D. I am the goto person for E&D where I work. I still go, every year, because, even though I know a lot, I have learned something every single year. Even though I know a lot, It is still interesting. Even though I know a lot, if I fuck up and do not treat people with respect and sensitivity, I can and will lose my job.

It's an hour or so. Nobody has ever accused me of being a racist because I have undergone further E&D training.

If I refused however........

No, it was a bad analogy I admit - Don't response wasn't a good rebuttal either - the analogy would have to go that no-one had to go on driving lessons or take a test, because if they were driving, they were clearly intelligent enough to be good drivers.

I can see that if someone required me to go on a parenting course out of the blue I might be a bit bemused but if everyone at work was sent on one, I wouldn't bother complaining, I would go.

They piloted study skills courses at my Uni for my year, so I went on them. In the end I didn't really learn anything I didn't already know from studying for A-levels, but I still went and there were still people on the course loudly protesting at having to go. They were men, but then most people on my course/in my faculty were, so I don't know if that was significant.

You're at University to learn, that's the whole point, if they require a course, you go. The idea that a 20 year old at Uni is refusing is arrogance at quite a level.

The driver analogy doesn't work. You don't take a test to show you're not a rapist.

And yes Capri... with the way things have been going, I doubt there's anyone who wouldn't benefit from a bit of a think about what consent looks like, let alone a highly privileged white bloke who seems to not understand the concept... hence his regurgitation of the same tired old rape myths about women drinking etc.

"this course implies that people on it need to be taught about consent"

The stats and on sexual assault and rape on campuses (and the lives experiences of many female students I come into contact with) indicate that exactly that is needed among students. Particularly among complacent young men who think they already know what consent means.

Capri I don't think it's fragile at all to be defensive about this course. The implication of going on one of these courses is that you aren't intelligent enough on the subject so need to be taught about consent. Telling someone who believes they are sufficiently educated in a subject that they ARENT is very likely to evoke a strong reaction. You can't make an implication that someone doesn't know what consent is then accuse them of being fragile when they pull you up on it.

I can understand their defensiveness. Say what you like, this course implies that people on it need to be taught about consent. So a lot of the men who don't need to be, will rightly be defensive on the subject.

From their point of view it's like being a qualified driver, then some stranger telling you you need to go to driving lessons. Why, you are already a driver.

Right thinking men wouldn't rape a woman and would seek to clarify if there was every misunderstanding or confusion. I dont feel a course would do that particular group of people any good. On the other hand I can see why the people who said they would rape (when rape was described without being called rape) would benefit from a course. They clearly have a thing or two to learn.

The really sad thing about it is that the 2 groups of men seem to have huge overlap.

That's why a consent workshop, which couldn't possibly cover every single situation, but would give food for thought to men who may not have had their preconceptions confronted before is pretty much imperative. Unless you're suggesting that the Freedom Program is of no value because it couldn't possibly cover every single situation which might be a red flag for future abuse or violence within relationships?

My DS would happily do this. He and his brother have been explicitly taught about consent, sexual and otherwise, since they were very tiny. It wouldn't suggest to him that anyone thought he was a rapist, which some of the precious little angels are now doing.