Radio 5 phone in on consent at 9.00am

link if anyone wants to listen to 5Live discussion starts approx 1 hr 21 mins. The woman who is debating with Mike Buchanan is excellent.

Treacle - woman (not rad fems) are willingly having sex with men but in the morning claiming they didn't give consent. He also says most 'incarcerated' rapists are serial rapists who were sexually abused as kids by women - often their mothers. Mike thinks we should run courses telling women not to abuse young boys.

No it isnt. The mans choice not to go has no impact on women, what do you care if a stranger you've never met before doesn't go to a class? It doesn't, his choice not to do doesn't impact women being helped.

Of course it does (or men, might also affect men, I have no idea of his preferences).

Because if he thinks he knows all about consent, but really doesn't, then it's anyone he sets his sights on who will be affected.

When he puts on a puppy dog face, and repeatedly mentions how much effort he put into cooking, how it's still early, have another glass of wine, come and sit next to me on the settee etc to someone he's invited round, tops up their drink a bit more, until they're just that touch to squiffy to feel they should walk home now it's 1am, they should stay over, it's fine, they'll just share a bed - the couch is really uncomfy and his housemates will be up early, and somehow, despite not really wanting to, they end up having sex.

That's happened to me with creeps, I've also been with decent blokes who have slept next to me after accepting no, and I've been with blokes where enjoyed where it went - but there's no doubt that's a dodgy consent situation - and one that bares thinking about - I wonder how much thought the consent refusers have put into that?

ah, I thought he sounded middle aged when I heard him, that makes more sense than him being one of the younger men mentioned here.

I did hear him trot out the well worn lie about feminists hating men.

But the thing is, honestly, that even if he was right and radical feminists hated men and couldn't imagine wanting to have sex with them...what then? Does he believe that women have no right to not want to have sex with men?

The odious man on the 5Live programme was Mike Buchanan "leader" of the "political party" Justice for Men & Boys (and the women who love them).

The problem, apparently, is "rad feminists" who dislike men so much they can't imagine any woman wanting to have sex with men.

Thanks for clearing that up, Mike

"Again, the man's feelings / choice / entitlement, is prioritised over helping women. Same old same old."

No it isnt. The mans choice not to go has no impact on women, what do you care if a stranger you've never met before doesn't go to a class? It doesn't, his choice not to do doesn't impact women being helped.

"But don't there are so many times in life that we have to attend courses, or accept advice, on things that we don't think we need."

Agreed, I'm saying that it shouldn't be compulsory.

"If you are a woman in hospital having had your second baby, you are still expected to accept advice on how to breastfeed a baby/change a nappy/hold a baby etc. I didn't feel like I needed that advice, but I listened to it and let the midwife tick a box on my discharge papers, rather than protest vehemently that I didn't need it. "

Surely if you're confident that you know the subject and don't need the advice you can just say as much? It's not like they are going to cart you off to jail for saying no, or take your baby away until you listen to their advice. Not saying that people should dismiss the advice by default, it could be that you appreciate the advice as it's been a while since your last baby, just that the choice is yours and you shouldn't be thought negatively of for either choosing to listen/choosing not to listen to the advice.

Maybe you might let us know how it went.

I will do.

Happy now, or want to continue to be all snarky for no apparently good reason?

If it helps at all, DH tells me that had to attend one every year as part of his job, so I'd guess that DS1 does too, given that they do the same thing. Pretty sure neither of them thinks anyone believes they're rapists. I've no doubt that, when I go back to uni next year I'll be offered one then, and will still have no problem with it.

Don't wait to be offered one - seek one out and enrol.

That help ?

Same here.

I've never been offered one, if I was, I'd go.

That help cadno?

So just out of interest how many posters here have gone on a consent learning 'workshop' (a little nod to Alexie) ?

Completely agree hesterton, but as long as that isn't happening I'm pleased some people are trying to do something. The women's officer who was organising te sessions wrote a great blog post to that effect

"Every year, I have to do an equality and diversity refresher. I am all about E&D. I am the goto person for E&D where I work. I still go, every year, because, even though I know a lot, I have learned something every single year. Even though I know a lot, It is still interesting. Even though I know a lot, if I fuck up and do not treat people with respect and sensitivity, I can and will lose my job. "

Completely agree with this. The day I think "I've got this E&D stuff licked, no need to attend ever again" is the day I hand in my (not at all fictitious) feminist card

I regularly ask DS whether they explicitly talk about consent in PHSE, and he says they don't. I'm going to raise it with the school soon.

And I would wholeheartedly agree with you there hesterton.

If we're going to rely on educational establishments to teach our children about consent in a structured way, then I would suggest that starting in EYFS would be the way to go. If you can teach very small children about the basics of consent... turn taking, kind hands, having bodily autonomy and the language to say no to things are the building blocks of this. The younger the better.

However, this workshop was put on after a specific and sustained request due to the enormous number of sexual assaults/rapes that occur within tertiary educational establishments.

No it's not, it's just a choice made on the part of the individual that the workshop isn't for them. Surely the only determined behaviour would be the people who persisted in trying to make them go?

Do you keep missing the word compulsory or something? Missing a compulsory thing because it makes you sad, but doesn't infringe on your human rights, or suggest you're a bad person is the epitome of determined behaviour.

I have to attend compulsory E&D training. I've explained why that might not be an appropriate use of my time. I still go. a) because it's compulsory and b) because, despite knowing an awful lot about the subject, I am not arrogant enough to think that I know everything. Obviously being a middle class white boy means that he is that arrogant.

And yes Buffy, and they keep telling us that feminism isn't needed anymore

Consent's not just about rape, surely? I would hope that going on a course like this might give men the confidence to speak up when they are with other men who are being dicks around women- the sort of men who are too insistent that a girl dance with him because she's not dancing with another man just with her girlfriends.....that sort of thing. Discussion of consent should surely cover personal space, male entitlement-that sort of thing.

But don't there are so many times in life that we have to attend courses, or accept advice, on things that we don't think we need.

If you are a woman in hospital having had your second baby, you are still expected to accept advice on how to breastfeed a baby/change a nappy/hold a baby etc. I didn't feel like I needed that advice, but I listened to it and let the midwife tick a box on my discharge papers, rather than protest vehemently that I didn't need it.

I used to work in financial services, and every three months I had to attend training on spotting money laundering. It was exactly the same training material every quarter for the whole ten years that I worked there. But it was still compulsory.