Radio 5 phone in on consent at 9.00am

"What you don't seem to realise, DontHave is that the ultimate purpose of this course is to protect young men, as well as young women. "

I do realize that. I know there are many young adults out there who don't have a sufficient understanding of consent, and I see how this course would help them. But it won't help the young adults who do have a sufficient understanding, it would just be covering the same ground for them. So I understand why someone might refuse to go to it in the same sense that I understand why someone wouldn't want to attend the annual workplace training courses. It's compulsory so people do just get on with it and go even though they don't learn anything they didn't know, and I feel it isn't worth losing your job over, but I understand why someone wouldn't want to go.

Great post Buffy.

So if he doesn't go to the course he'll become a rapist? I didn't say that. But he's certainly fido,acing certain characteristics which would make me think he wouldn't take a woman's wishes into consideration over what he wants.

Of course there is always that risk Don't, that the course gas no affect on certain people we would it have an effect on. I went on an E & D bloke who spent the whole time bemoaning the fact that as a white, heterosexual male he was being discriminated against. He was beyond saving. However, I learnt never to be in a room by myself with him.

But it's far far better to acknowledge the problem, name it for what it is and try and do something about it. It also allows women to understand consent and that they don't just have to put up with this shit.

E&D courses are absolutely necessary as are drills.

Recently in the USA a flight was abandoned due to fire in the engines. Despite most of those on board being long term flight users, a sizeable portion proceeded to ignore the rules of evacuation and take their possessions from the overhead. Unbelievable. I'm sure all of them knew the rules and everything there was to know about the subject matter of evacuation from an aircraft.

"Any women that cross his path could potentially suffer though."

So if he doesn't go to the course he'll become a rapist? Unlikely. I'd say that its just as likely he could go to the course, not pay attention during it but still get an overinflated sense that he knows everything just because he went, and end up missing a sign from a woman that she isn't consenting to something and she suffers, because this guy went on the course. That's very unlikely, but so is your suggestion that he might rape someone because he wasn't at the workshop. Not going is unlikely to turn anyone into a rapist who doesn't know what consent means.

And if the course is compulsory, he does have to justify his position.

There is such a sense of entitlement coming through in your posts, Dont. It's quite worrying.

No, he isn't the 'only one who suffers' if he doesn't go to the course. He doesn't suffer at all. Any women that cross his path could potentially suffer though.

"So you think things like drugs education, education about stds, contraception etc should just be stopped because some of these kids might already know all about it and they might not get pregnant so, hey, why should we get involved?"

No I don't, I've not even mentioned any of those subjects. I think all the things you've mentioned there should stay, so I'm not sure why you think that I feel they should be stopped.

"I think your position is bollocks. I think you have no way of justifying why an 18 year old should refuse these compulsory classes so you have moved on to 'but hey, it's a free country and we can't be sure he might end up raping someone "

This is the thing, you seem to think he has to justify his choice not to go, but he doesn't. He's the only one who suffers if he doesn't go to this workshop, why is it any of our business, and why do you think he has to justify his personal life to you?

I already gave a justification why some might refuse the compulsory classes, but you dismissed it out of hand. So your statement that I have no way of justifying it is incorrect. I did give a justification, you just ignored it or decided it was wrong.

We do E & D courses though, under the assumption that if we don't people will express racist/homophobic/sexist/ableist views and potentially break the law I.e. commit a criminal act. Why is this any different?

It is shit that so many people have racist/homphobic etc views and unconscious bias that we have to have E & D courses. It is shit that so many men feel the need to sexually harass, assault and cross women's boundaries and have unconscious bias that consent courses are needed.

With each lecture there comes a fire drill, it's compulsory. With each air flight you take there is a drill, it's compulsory. If employers, i.e. lecturers and flight staff didn't do this, it would be deemed negligent.

I went to a major shareholders meeting recently and the Chair didn't do the fire drill. It was flagged up by members of the audience. Just because it was a private sector meeting didn't mean the drill shouldn't have taken place.

This is a one off lecture (though I think it should be yearly). When students progress from halls to private residency, they are given a code of conduct leaflet regarding neighbourliness, and are asked to read and abide by it. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

"Your position is that an 18 year old might well know all there is to know about consent and should decline the course. I think most 18 year olds are smart and considerate enough to want to educate themselves as much as possible, because they are not afraid of being exposed to a topic which calls upon them to listen to and absorb different view points."

No my position is that it should be up to them whether they take the course or not. Deciding not to go to a course where you already know everything there is to know about the subject matter doesn't mean you aren't smart or considerate. Nor does it mean you are afraid of being exposed to a specific topic, it's more that you see no point in going over the same ground.

Not sure what you mean when you talk about absorbing different viewpoints. Consent is not a subject matter where there are acceptable alternate views, it's a subject with a very clear right and wrong answer. You can have your own beliefs on the subject but it's not one of those abstract courses where there is no right answer and where opinion and different beliefs are paramount.

"What if the person who feels they know all there is to know about consent is actually wrong and doesn't know as much as he/she thinks they do?"

"But potentially the fallout isn't for him at all. If he is mistaken, and his interactions fall into the category where he thinks he is just 'trying his luck' and 'having a bit of fun' and another person finds his behaviour threatening and coercive, then it is the other person who suffers the fallout, not him."

Speculation is pointless, we can't act in the present in a certain way based on the potential for someone to become a criminal in the future. We don't lock people up because we think they might become a killer or rapist in the future. We shouldn't assume that they need to go to a course because they might become a rapist if they don't. We deal in facts and what we know. And what we know is that his refusal to do the workshop hasn't impacted on you, the only person it has negative consequences for is him. So if he wants to take a course of action where the only person affected by the fallout is himself, that's his lookout.

"If any of my children, aged 18, said 'I literally know every thing there is to know about consent' I would realise I had done a tragically piss poor job in raising them."

Has it crossed your mind that if they said that it may be because they actually DO know everything they need to know about consent? You have a very low opinion of 18 year olds, assuming it's beyond their reaches to be capable of knowing what consent is.

But potentially the fallout isn't for him at all. If he is mistaken, and his interactions fall into the category where he thinks he is just 'trying his luck' and 'having a bit of fun' and another person finds his behaviour threatening and coercive, then it is the other person who suffers the fallout, not him.

What if the person who feels they know all there is to know about consent is actually wrong and doesn't know as much as he/she thinks they do?

"Selfish, small minded, defensive.
And again, any 18 year old who professes that they literally have not one single thing to explore around consent - given that it is an incredibly complicated issue - is absolutely flagging himself up as the most in need of attending."

It's not selfish because he isn't causing an issue for anyone else. The only person this has a negative fallout for is him because he'll be in trouble for not going to a compulsory course. You won't be affected by it, neither will anyone else, so why do we care if he goes or not? And it's not defensive either, he's simply decided the course isn't for him because he has nothing to learn from it. You might challenge this but who are you to judge whether he knows enough? Do you know him better than he knows himself?

You're doing a disservice to a lot of 18 year olds. I accept that many don't know all they need to about consent, but the flip side is that many do, and going to such a course is a waste of time for those people. What's the point of an 18 year old with sufficient understanding of consent going to a course where they give you a sufficient understanding of consent? There isn't one, it's as pointless as those health and safety courses we all go to. They are compulsory if you want to keep your job yes but that doesn't change the fact that they are almost always a waste of time for people with a sufficient enough understanding on the topic.

And the student is not stopping the university doing something about those difficulties, he is not stopping people who feel they need a workshop to understand consent sufficiently enough from going and getting that knowledge.

What this really gets down to is whether you trust yourself to know everything you need to on the topic of consent, or whether you want a workshop to discuss the issue. Many who feel that their understanding of consent is sufficient might just not see the point in going to the course, others would go even though they don't think they will learn anything new, sort of like the annual health and safety courses people suffer through at work even though the content has remained the same year after year.