Radio 5 phone in on consent at 9.00am

Others I am engaging I just have no intention of agreeing with an opinion that I feel is flawed. Yes the course will have results but they will be minimal. I can't help thinking we would be better focused on tackling the issue another way although I'm not quite sure what that should be. However just because I dont have any alternative proposal it doesn't mean that I can't criticise other proposals.

More fool us really, for engaging for 9 pages with someone who has no intention of actually engaging.

Dont absolutely I have no idea what the effect will be. I am however eager to see the results. Doing something is better than doing nothing, and if that doesn't work: Sit and have another think and try something else...

Thanks for linking to the stats. And I agree sexual assault at university is something we should stamp out. And while I'm not knocking this course because I do see how it would benefit some, I think it's value is being overestimated here. You assumption that a workshop will have any affect on the 1/3 figure assumes that a rapist will decide not to rape once they've been taught that it's wrong. Is that likely? Yes, the rapists who don't identify as rapists because they don't know what consent means probably will walk away and refrain from raping, but many others won't. The course will have no affect on them. So I'm not saying this workshop won't have any results, it will have results but those results will be minimal

Eldon not sure what you're asking. We all know what consent ie.

On a separate note and in an attempt to move the discussion on further I remember coming across the idea in psychological development that teenagers don't develop the ability to read facial expressions and body language in any great complexity until on average at around 18. I think that could if true have some relevance, has anyone else come across this? I'll try and dig it up myself in any case.

I am aware for example we get 20 mph speed limits in a lot of town centers thanks to the fact that the ability to judge respective velocities of cars and when they will arrive doesn't kick in until around 16, and obviously many teens below that are out and about so therefore 20mph is the safest speed to drive to avoid killing/injuring young people, as they have difficulty judging speeds of cars going above that.

Dont the Dunning-Kruger effect takes care of explaining why someone who thinks all they need to know could be labouring under a cognitive dissonance. In short he's too ignorant to actually know he's ignorant.

You want a link to that 1 in 3 statistic:

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11343380/Sexually-assault-1-in-3-UK-female-students-victim-on-campus.html

Of course you don't need to have a good grasp of the problem to criticize any proposals, but I'm afraid you are in danger of not being taken particularly seriously. You weren't even well read up on the news item of relevance to know he had posted an asinine picture of himself stating this wasn't what a rapist looks like.

Your whole support of the man in question stems from an empathy towards his position, and believe it or not I'm capable of empathizing with him as well. However his entire position is based on a faulty premise. First the whole point of the workshop is not about blaming men, it's about raising awareness of a problem that plagues UK universities. There is no implication from being asked to attend a workshop that anyone whatsoever thinks he is a rapist or even a potential one.

In fact if he is an A* star student on the complexities of consent you ideally want him there to have the floor for a moment as an example of how people should behave re: consent. If your trying to generate a decent social environment for everyone to study and network free from any form of sexual abuse, you need to establish that as the normal dominant paradigm within which everyone operates.

Essentially you either agree that rape and sexual assaults at UK Universities are things we should stamp out or you don't. I wouldn't actually knock anyone trying to do anything about it, unless you're willing to submit a workable alternative. Otherwise being critical is only just so much mental masturbation on your part. Besides all you bring at this point is your opinion, backed up with very little constructive evidence. Might I respectfully respect you refrain from adding anything else , as all you are doing is restating your opinion ad nauseum. We know your position and don't subscribe to it. If you have anything at all evidence based or constructive to bring I'm all ears.

I wouldn't want to sign an acceptable use policy, as I wouldn't break the rules anyway.

So Don't what are those rules you speak of when it comes to consent?

My italics and my bold.

An awful lot of rapists don't think they're rapists. An awful lot of people don't understand consent. Ched Evans, for example, would probably feel entitled to hold up the "This is not what a rapist looks like" placard.

Education in consent is a good idea - I can't understand anyone who would not think this.

The part where he's doing a sad face while holding up a sign saying "this is not what a rapist looks like" was a dead giveaway for me thinking that he thinks that he doesn't look like a rapist. If he doesn't think he looks like a rapist, as asserted by the sign he's holding up in the picture attached to his article, what does he think rapists look like?

Nice side step though, because yes, the fact that he doesn't think he looks like a rapist is shocking.

Don't - people on this thread have repeatedly provided statistics to suggest that the rate of sexual assaults on university campuses are very high. Therefore, any argument like yours that is based on the idea that 'the majority of other students already know what they need to about consent' collapses in the face of the actual evidence.

There are links to the evidence base and to a good legal briefing (which outlines the legal obligation that universities have to ensure that women are not subject to stalking, harrassment, assault and rape) here www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/women-students-safe-equal

If someone at 18 years age still doesn't know what consent means that's a sign something has gone very wrong in their upbringing.

Perhaps, but why should we wait until there is a victim before anything is done? What's wrong with a catchall course that everyone has to attend to make sure that everyone is on the same page? People who "don't consider themselves a rapist" sit very broadly across a spectrum of "acceptable behaviour". Even some women don't know what they should expect, eg like not being sexually assaulted by their husbands while they sleep.

Darvel where does the figures that you asserted come from? And while I don't have a solution that will prevent every sexual assault or rape on every campus, I don't need to have one in order to criticise other proposals

Right so his objection to the course is that he believes he and the majority of other students already know what they need to about consent and that in his mind it would be a waste of time. On that grounds I actually do understand his opposition to going, how many of us would, if we had the choice, avoid the workplace training courises that never teach us anything new? I wouldn't want to sign an acceptable use policy, as I wouldn't break the rules anyway. There's some level at which I think courses step over the limit. If someone at 18 years age still doesn't know what consent means that's a sign something has gone very wrong in their upbringing.

He stood there with a placard with the words "This isn't what a rapist looks like". Have you really only just the headline of this news item?? In which case I really am confused what your investment in all this is.

Essentially you don't seem to be really all that that opposed to the common sense solution that they make the courses compulsorary and have sanctions for those who fail to comply.

Given as I've asserted rape/assault statistics are 1 in 4 amongst the general female population, and 1 in 3 amongst female students is it really so problematic to identify that as a) a problem and b) something we should tackle? Again I challenge you if compulsorary consent workshops are not the way forward, what are Universities to do?

Buffy said: '"He's sending a message that his hurty feelz are more worthy of everyone's attention and concern than the level of sexual assault on campuses."

And Don't replied "I don't understand why you think he can only believe in one of those things."

Er... have you read his article, Don't? Because he pretty much opposes his hurty feelz to the entire programme of education about consent. He starts by claiming (against all the evidence) that the 'overwhelming majority of people' understand consent, follows that up with 'I don’t need your help to understand basic human interaction', and then ends with 'Next time you consider inviting me or anyone else to another bulls__t event like this, have a little respect for the intelligence and decency of your peers'.

It's just pure, unadulterated arrogance from an overprivileged scrote.

Buffy,

"He's sending a message that his hurty feelz are more worthy of everyone's attention and concern than the level of sexual assault on campuses."

I don't understand why you think he can only believe in one of those things. What if he afford equal consideration to both, what if he feels that he doesn't need to go to this course and he also feels that women have just as important a right to go about safely on campus. It's almost as if it's saying that if you don't go to this course, you must not want women to have the right to be safe on campus but why, what if you do believe in that but just don't want to go on the course?

"It's interesting to me that his statement that he isn't what a rapist looks like isn't being dissected though. If he doesn't think that he looks like a rapist, what do he and others think a rapist actually looks like?"

If he's actually said that he doesn't physically look like a rapist then that's rather shocking. A rapist doesn't have a particular type of appearance.

I think your spot on as usual Buffy especially on affecting a sea change. It has to be worth a shot.

I believe the example of him not being able to stay on campus was mooted for that situation, Don't. So, not dissimilar to what would happen if he refused to attend the required H&S lecture, or his not being able to use the intranet if he doesn't attend the fair use lecture.

Again, the discussion of consent should be being had much earlier, in EYFS preferably and then ongoing throughout a child's educational career.

It's interesting to me that his statement that he isn't what a rapist looks like isn't being dissected though. If he doesn't think that he looks like a rapist, what do he and others think a rapist actually looks like?

What if he still refused to go to them, deciding that it was worth taking whatever punishment he got for failure to attend a compulsory class. Unless you're literally talking about jailing people who don't go, there would still be the odd one who didn't go, but yes there would be much higher attendance if it was compulsory, as it would just be seen as another of those courses we need to sit through every so often.

Well make em' compulsorary, problem solved. Then nobody needs to feel singled out. It's just something everyone does!

Addressing the point many have raised, quite fairly that perhaps this should all be addressed a fair bit earlier through schools. I quite agree, but given that University is a time where women are more at risk it simply must be addressed.

"he's not exactly showing his respect for women either."

How does him deciding that an optional class isn't for him, mean that he isn't showing respect for women?

"How anyone can fail to see this, signals to me that that person who does fail to attend has something to hide."

I don't think that's right at all, that's the same idea that if you aren't doing anything wrong you won't mind your partner going through your handbag or your phone. He might not have anything to hide, he just doesn't want to go to the class. You can't assume he might be a rapist just because he isn't going to a course, that's assuming without any solid grounds.

Says cadno

How anyone can fail to see this, signals to me that that person who does fail to attend has something to hide

Classic. This is the thread that keeps on giving.