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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why isn't rape a hate crime?

162 replies

grimbletart · 13/10/2015 13:48

Just that really.
I was reading about the reported increase in hate crimes involving race, religion, disability, sexual orientation and transgenderism.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34515763

To be a rapist you really have to hate or despise women or you couldn't inflict such pain and humiliation on them.

I'm sure plenty of posters will come along and say I'm impractical, wrong, daft or whatever, but to me, as well as issues such as control, entitlement etc. rape really is a crime of hate.

So why not?

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 16/10/2015 17:30

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00100001 · 16/10/2015 17:26

OK, so if were adding sex and age to the list

Why not add... Hair colour?

grimbletart · 16/10/2015 17:22

I didn't want to post and vanish. It was a question posed to kick start a debate, thus the why not? I honestly don't know what I think.

I am having real difficulty separating what would be possible in law from the moral issue.

Morally I feel that a rapist would not be a rapist unless he was driven by negative feelings about women e.g. he had hatred or contempt for them in the same way that someone who beats up a man because he is Asian or has a disability or is, say, transgender has hatred or contempt for the group from which the victim comes. I see women as a group in the same way that, say, Asians are a group in that context.

The individual suffering is representative of a group for whom the rapist/attacker has hatred or contempt.

Now, it may be that, legally it doesn't stack up as ALass indicates. As I said I expected to be told I'm wrong, daft, impractical…

However, the law seems to find a way to decide that a crime may be aggravated when it comes to the victims coming from various groups within the population and takes the crime against those individuals more seriously/gives stronger sentences etc. in those circumstances. In other words society and the law gives out a strong moral message.

But women, as a group, do not attract the same consideration.

So, I asked why not?

Perhaps the argument is that it is possible to beat up, for example, an Asian man simply because you had a fight with him and it was nothing to do with his ethnicity: and by the same token it is possible to rape a woman because you happened to dislike her individually and it was nothing to do with the fact that she was a woman. But is it?

I dunno. But I've found all the points being made food for thought. Smile

OP posts:
SenecaFalls · 16/10/2015 17:21

Although I can't think of age related hate as easily as female related hate

I agree, but the dynamics of family and sexual violence against elders has a lot in common with the dynamics of violence against women. Older people are devalued in society, older women especially so.

LurcioAgain · 16/10/2015 17:18

I've been trying to see how this would connect (if at all - this is a sort of brain dump starting point) with the article you posted on the "radio 5 discussion on consent"thread, Buffy. If I understood it, it tried to distinguish between men who were prepared to self identify as rapists, men who were prepared to self identify as having obtained sex by physical coercion but didn't describe themselves as rapists, and men whoddidn't place themselves in either category. The authors then tried to correlate this with two other attitudes - degree of hypermasculinity and degree of negative affect towards women. They identified the relevant hypermascule beliefs as a tendency to objectify and a tendency to see men as dominant. Negative affect went further - belifs that women were intrinsically manipulative, dishonest etc.

Both rapists and coercive sex carriers- out (hard to come up with a phrase which describes them as they see themselves) identified with high degrees of engagement in a hypermasculine world view, in contrast to what I'm tempted to describe simply as "decent men". But the self identified rapista and the coercive sex inflicters differed on level of negative affect.

I guess I'd gloss this as the first are full on misogynists while the others really (if erroneously) think they have no beef with women as a group, just that this particular woman got uppity and had to be slapped down.

Is one a kind of hate crime but not the other?

(Incidentally, Buffy, the abstract made my jaw drop and not in a good way, by describing the attitudes of the coercers as "benevolent sexism". I had this "fuck me, you can use 'benevolent' in this context?" moment. )

SenecaFalls · 16/10/2015 17:17

The age issue in many (if not most) jurisdictions in the US is that there can be additional statutes under which sexual and other types of assault can be charged if the victim is older. In my state the jurisdictional age is 60 and over.

WMittens · 16/10/2015 17:16

Nobody has explained to me (as far as I can see) what hate actually means, in this context. Maybe that'd be a good starting point.

00100001 did, 6 (ish) posts before yours:

Well. The law says for it to be Hate Crime, the offender attacked the victim because of a particular reason:

"Hate crime involves any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a personal characteristic. Hate crime can be motivated by disability, gender identity, race, religion or faith and sexual orientation."

Gov.uk site

WMittens · 16/10/2015 17:14

why the law defines hate in a certain way

It doesn't - 'Hate Crime' is a specific term.

'Hate' is a different term, and is arguably present in most or all non-victimless(?) crimes.

slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 17:06

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thedancingbear · 16/10/2015 17:02

Then shouldn't Age be added too?

I'd have no problem with that.

00100001 · 16/10/2015 16:59

If sex is to be added (i'm nto saying it shouldn't)

Then shouldn't Age be added too?

slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 16:52

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 16/10/2015 16:51

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00100001 · 16/10/2015 16:50

slugs why can't a rape be prosecuted as a hate crime?

It can be, if for example you rape someone because they're Buddhist.

WMittens · 16/10/2015 16:44

To be a rapist you really have to hate or despise women or you couldn't inflict such pain and humiliation on them.

You're taking a far too literal and simplistic meaning of 'Hate Crime' - it has a specific meaning in law. You're interpreting it as a crime that is done because of hate, which is not the case, otherwise pretty much every case of assault, ABH, GBH, vandalism and murder would be hate crimes; we know this isn't the case.

Regarding inflicting pain and humiliation: you're thinking from the point of view of the victim (obviously - it's not likely anyone wants to relate to the point of view of the rapist). The rapist may not care one way or the other - they're obviously not a compassionate sort of person (I'm of the opinion that anyone who wilfully and personally inflicts suffering on another - whether rape or non-sexual violence - has something wrong with their brain).

00100001 · 16/10/2015 16:34

Well, the problem is the list could be never ending for Hate Crime :/

Is that thug beating up the "ginger" kid, a hate crime? He's only doing it because the kid has ginger hair.

What if I think all people who wear tattoos are tossers and verbally abuse them and say "oi, tattooed person, F OFF YOU C**T"

There's perhaps fine line between Vicitmisation and Hate Crime?

slugseatlettuce · 16/10/2015 16:13

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00100001 · 16/10/2015 16:06

Well. The law says for it to be Hate Crime, the offender attacked the victim because of a particular reason:

"Hate crime involves any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a personal characteristic. Hate crime can be motivated by disability, gender identity, race, religion or faith and sexual orientation."

Gov.uk site

So, probably a person's sex should definitely be in that list as one can be motivated to commit a crime because of someone's sex.

But even if sex was on the list. It doesn't then follow that all rape is a Hate Crime.

shovetheholly · 16/10/2015 16:00

I think there is a difference between these questions:

  • what does the law say?
  • what do we (maybe each one of us) think is right?
  • why does a gap exist between question 2 and question 1 in a particular case?

To me, grimble's question is of the third type, and that's why it's so interesting. It's an invitation to reflect on what power structures/ideological investments might be at stake in defining certain things as 'hate crimes' and certain things as 'not hate crimes'.

00100001 · 16/10/2015 15:58

so, the target of rape could be a man or woman - so unless there is a shared characteristic/trait of both men and women in general, then Hate Crime can't be broadly applied to rape.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 16/10/2015 15:56

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00100001 · 16/10/2015 15:56

Well, according to legislation Rape is defnied:

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Legislation.gov.uk

HeighHoghItsBacktoWorkIGo · 16/10/2015 15:55

Definitely agree there should be a class of hate crime which is crimes against women because they are women. This should certainly include cyber-stalking/bullying as well as rape.

00100001 · 16/10/2015 15:53

Yes - but the question OP asked what "Why isn't rape a hate crime? Just that really ... To be a rapist you really have to hate or despise women or you couldn't inflict such pain and humiliation on them."

Her OP implies that only women are raped - which isn't true. So that's why I am saying the answer to "why isn't rape a hate crime?" because by definition it isn't a Hate Crime. "Why isn't rape a Hate Crime?" is a different question to "Why isn't male-on-female rape a Hate Crime?"

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 16/10/2015 14:55

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