Something started me thinking about girls and eating this evening.

The shrinking women poem sounds very much like my family. My mum was from a family where her mum gave the men and boys more food, grandma and the girls usually didn't have meat on their Sunday lunch and would fill up on Yorkshire puddings, so that grandad and her brothers had plenty and also enough meat for sandwiches for their lunches, if any of my uncles were still hungry after eating then my mum or her mum would take food from their already smaller portioned plates and give to the uncles or my grandad.

I think it came from a mix of poverty, living on rations, and an understanding that because the men were the ones paying for the food due to working in the mine then they needed the fuel more. My gran and grandad weren't overweight, but all my mums male siblings are and my aunts are small. Similar happened on my Dads side of the family, they weren't as poor as my Mums side, but men were served their food first, got seconds if they wanted,then the my gran and her daughter would have what's left, I think for my Dad's mother, feeding her "boys" well was a source of pride for her, it's made her a good wife and mother in her circle's eyes.

So when I was little, I got smaller portions than my dad and brother, because it's what my mum was learnt, and my dad was raised to expect it, I didn't bother questioning it,despite being hungry sometimes, because visits to grandparents reinforced this, esp when I and my female cousins had to wait for the men to eat and also have seconds before we ate. Might be coincidence and totally unrelated but my brother and all the men on both sides are overweight yet eats as much as he wants carefree, wheras I'm underweight but get comments about my "figure" if I dare go for a second burger. Food was often used as a treat for me, wheras a necessity for my brother, I got sweets if I did well at school for eg, my brother would get them from Dad because he was a growing lad. (Brother always shared them with me though)

I tried talking to my dad about it before he died, asking how did he think his sister felt eating last and did he not think to save some of the nicer food for her, and he was genuinely offended at such a suggestion, claiming men don't like fat girls so he and his brothers probably did her a favour anyway. I'm embarassed at how normal I thought it all was.

Curious - I agree that girls/women are able to wheel off the calories in many foods. My dh has no idea how many calories are in anything. He wants - he eats. I want then calculate if it is worth the calories - usually not!

I understand where Lass is coming, from I think.

Tbh it's taken me quite a few years to realise how many people, and yes especially women, have strange relationships with food. I love food and cooking and eating out. Other people not enjoying their food and being odd about it didn't impinge much on that!

I pay more attention to my dd's eating as she is slightly overweight according to the chart. I limit snacks and encourage more fruit. No fizz and I water down juice. I do not make a fuss as I do not want to damage her self esteem. I would do the same with my ds if necessary.

As a child and teen I was skinny. I had a sweet tooth, caring little about meals. Dd has not inherited my build and is more stocky.

I do recall my peers at secondary school being amazed that I could help myself to biscuits and snacks at home - they had to ask their parents. Maybe their mothers were watching their weight too.

If you have had parents with good sense it's easier to think "stuff and nonsense". Others aren't so fortunate and need to work out how to contradict the messages they have absorbed.

I can't seem to copy and paste the middle part of what you wrote there bertie but wow I had absolutely no idea anyone thought like that!

I eat "like a man" or I eat what I want, as much of it as I want whenever I want. I get pleasure from eating have expensive tastes and am not about to deprive myself because society my mother tuts at my 'fatness'. (Which is more to do with my sedentary lifestyle than my diet.)

When I spend a lot of time with other women, say on a weekend away, I notice how completely different my diet is from theirs and how different my attitude to food is. Eg I eat 'manly' food like steaks, burgers, eggs but don't eat sweet 'girly' things like chocolate or biscuits.

I wasn't particularly socialised as a girl when I was growing up (my parents wanted a boy and treated me like the son they never had) and I think my relationship with food now comes from that.

I have dcs of both sexes now and even though I'm a feminist who has tried my hardest at gender neutral parenting I'll admit that I do offer dd sweets more than her dbro. I also more consciously worry about her putting on too much weight as I know how society treats overweight women especially during the difficult teen years.

As to the calorie requirements quoted above I don't think these are innate. A body with a higher muscle ratio needs more calories to maintain its weight. Boys are encouraged to be more active even from infancy so they become more muscly so need more calories.

It's not just calories though- girls need more iron (periods) and calcium (osteoporosis) and vit c&d to absorb these in their diets than boys. But ironically they probably consume less red meat & dairy which would be good sources of these because they are pressurised away from these 'high fat' foods so they can be slim. So appearance overrides health and parents are party to these trends.

So I think this is a big feminist issue.

How wonderful to be so strong and self aware I know you were being sarcastic -but yes it is.

Perhaps not seeing everything, including whether I'm "allowed " to have an extra biscuit, as a patriarchal conspiracy helps.

Sorry, she's not upset about extra sport, she loves that! Just reduced snacks/ tighter portion control.
DH says he notices things so much more now he has a DD, and thinks much more about food and what he's putting into his body.

I definitely agree with you OP, girls (generally) receive a different message about food than boys.

Personally, as a teenager I was very slim, even skinny. I did a lot of ballet and dance so I was active. I ate a lot, but as I got older, maybe around 14 or 15, I remember becoming aware that my friends didn't eat as much as me, and that I was looked down on for taking a second biscuit or whatever. I basically internalised the message that I was getting from society generally, which was that eating a lot is something to be guilty about.
I have never had an eating disorder, but my eating was disordered, IYSWIM. I counted calories and I weighed myself pretty much every day for my late teen years. Interestingly, the thing that helped me break out of that obsessive cycle was becoming a vegetarian when I was about 19. I informed myself about protein and carbohydrates and the need for x amount of calcium/iron/whatever a day. And when I started looking at food from a nutritional point of view rather than how many calories were in it, my whole perspective changed. It was the first time in my life that I was eating to be healthy, rather than to lose weight. And I think that is the problem, generally girls are taught to eat to lose weight, and boys are focussing on gaining muscle etc. You can see this in that a lot (not all, but a lot) of girls and women would be able to give you an approximate number of calories in any given food. An apple? 70. Bag of crisps? About 250. Boys and men (IMO) are very, very rarely aware of the amount of calories they are eating.

I am struggling a little with this at present. DD is 9 and beginning puberty, she has begun to have a little fat collecting around her tummy (always been bang on 50th weight, 70th height). I am starting to say no to snacks and extra food when she is asking, and have upped the exercise she does (extra two sessions per week, so sporting activity/games 5/7 days). She is hurt by this, and sees it as me being mean to her, which obviously is far from my intentions. My difficulty comes in having DS who is 6, and has always been underweight (50th height but 5th weight since 18mo). He doesn't like many foods, very restricted diet in variety and quantity, and we often encourage him to eat more.
We have done all the explaining why expectations are different for each, but she still sees reduced snackage as a punishment.
We want her to remain healthy, but it's very hard to maintain healthy attitudes to food, particularly when all through her life other people have commented what a good eater she is (because she genuinely likes fruit and veg, and because she will try anything). She really likes food, loves the tastes etc.

As a self proclaimed feminist I know I am affected by societal pressure . It's kinda the point...

Well alass you don't have one so you can't know .

Societal pressure upon women is very strong and insidious. It affects most of us and it must be a good thing to consider it and work out how we might try not to pass it along?

Sorry- can't imagine for one minute I'd have thought that about a daughter.

I'm surprised that on a personal level a feminist can't simply think "stuff and nonsense " and ignore what society thinks.

I actually think Bertrand"s comment that she would have commented on her daughter very strange. If you are going to challenge society's attitudes to women's appearance it seems very odd not to start with yourself. I don't call myself a feminist and I can't imagine for one mon

Alass I have made up my mind. But I also have enough self awareness to realise that my subconscious attitudes were different.

Yes, I'm certainly not going to comment on my DD's eating habits as

a. she has no weight issues whatsoever.
b. she is in rude health.
c. she has fabulous self esteem and I will do nothing that might harm that.
d. she is becoming a young woman and what she does with her body (in terms of health, food, sex etc) becomes less of my business.

This is family dependent ime. We all ate plenty as teens with no difference in how the sexes were treated or discussed.

Some other families I have subsequently discovered have eating disordered ways of being. My own MiL once gave me a filthy look for deciding to indulge in another chocolate after I'd said I was done. The women in her line all monitor the quantity of what they eat. My niece went very thin last year. It is all very unlike my side of the family.

My reply was to Bertrand not Bertie.

Of course she can lass - but we're talking about why she feels these urges to control her daughter but not her son.

We can all make personal changes, but this is a discussion board so we come here and talk about them too.

IME there is plenty of social pressure on boys to eat healthily and look good. If you are male gym fanatic your diet won't look like a female yoga fanatic but it will be just as monitored and controlled.

Oh come on you are a grown up woman and presumably a self proclaimed feminist. You can't make up your own mind in your own kitchen that it's fine if a teenager, of either sex, is hungry (and there are no obesity or health issues) they should be allowed to eat ?

And I do have a teenage (half) brother now, he is built like a rugby player and really does inhale food. It's quite amazing to see. But I wonder if he's eating because the food is there and he fancies it, or because he's actually hungry. I could easily eat more than I do, but I like to pace myself and try to save leftovers. I tend to undercater with the reasoning being that people can always go back for seconds. DH tends to overcater and doesn't seem to worry about wasting huge quantities of food, and that bothers/worries me as well. To me eating an extra large portion because it tastes nice and you want to prolong the experience of eating is a waste. Eating a large portion because you are hungry is fine, but there is a HUGE gulf between pleasantly satisfied and so stuffed you can barely move. I think it bothers me when people go past that line just for the pleasure of eating because I find it quite selfish especially if it means they get a larger portion of a food I also enjoy, eat all of the leftovers removing my option of an easy dinner night, or just eat more without leaving food for other people.

YY to families where people comment. My best friend at secondary school had two older brothers who ate loads but when she overate her father affectionately called her his little pig. She hated it but never told him. And was constantly convinced she was fat even though she was a size 10.