Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some men cannot cope with feminism's victory

110 replies

jezestbelle · 26/09/2015 09:40

Spent the evening yesterday with a male friend of a few years standing who I see from time to time. We always talk about everything and since DS left home I have more time. I had a really really long in depth chat with him about the different pressures on men and women. He is I have to say relatively empathetic about women and societal expectations, entitled men etc. He did make one point which made me think. He said that nobody actually chooses to have sexual feelings, and how much he longed to be able to temporarily switch them off, for example long periods when he has been single. I did of course counter that believe itornot women also experience such feelings, but he said he knew that but was just relating his own experience. He also said he reckons just about every example of unacceptable male behaviour is down to insecurity, and that many men cannot deal with women having relative success in the modern world. Well too bad! I do feel we women are on the up in general and men are..not.

OP posts:
Yops · 29/09/2015 17:05

Very good article, holly, thank you.

shovetheholly · 29/09/2015 08:09

Yops - I don't think anyone here would deny those victories. And they are all things that have happened in the last 150 years or so. Even in a relatively short historical timescale, say "the modern era", women have only had the most basic rights for a blink of an eye (and all too many experience the flouting of those rights on a daily basis, e.g. domestic violence and rape). But we all know that there is still a long way to go - the stats I posted earlier about a gender pay gap, and gendered differences in housework/childcare being just two areas out of hundreds where women are still systematically disadvantaged.

I think that it's important to remember that the problems are structural. With a few exceptions, this is not about men being evil or men being good in their intentions. It's about the way that we live in societies that are riven through with oppressive and exploitative relationships, many of which work along an axis of gender, and some of which are veiled in some way as 'natural' or 'normal' so we simply don't 'see' them. While awareness-raising is an important first step, to achieve equality we need something beyond a change of attitude amongst men as autonomous, liberal individuals - we need to put in place social, cultural and economic systems that allow women to achieve on a equal basis with men and to be rewarded equally for it. As the inheritors of a series of sedimented historical relations from which they benefit, I think men can be valuable allies in pursuing these changes, or they can be obstacles to the progress of equality by denying that there is continuing injustice and unfairness.

And just to clarify something about contributions: 'mansplaining' isn't something that we accuse all men of when speaking to women. it is a particular variety of patronising behaviour, in which a man who knows less about a subject than a woman explains it to her in a deeply condescending way, one that assumes that she cannot have valuable knowledge or expertise about it. The term was coined following an essay by Rebecca Solnit called 'Men Explain Things To Me'. It describes her experience of going to a party hosted by a very wealthy, arrogant man. Late in the evening, he demanded that she and her friend stayed so that he could talk to her, then opened a conversation by saying that he'd heard she'd written a book. She replied that she'd written several, the latest being on Edward Muybridge. And he proceeded to tell her that there had been a VERY IMPORTANT book out about Muybridge recently, and to hold forth on it at some length on the basis that he'd read a review of it in the New York Times. All the while, her friend tried to interject "You're telling her ABOUT HER OWN BOOK!" Apparently it took three or four repetitions of this before it sunk in.

So, you see, mansplaining isn't an objection to men speaking or having an opinion - it's an objection to them talking down to women about subject that the women know far, far more about. It's an assumption of knowledge and authority that is baseless and arrogant and patronising - it takes up discursive space in a giving forth rather than assuming that the women who are present are discursive equals who deserve to be heard. And it is therefore oppressive in its assumptions and in its results.

Here's the essay: www.guernicamag.com/daily/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/

BertrandRussell · 29/09/2015 07:50

If, indeed, eventually being granted a measure of equality can be described as a "victory".…..........

BertrandRussell · 29/09/2015 07:49

"Feminism's victory" implies that all has been achieved. Nobody is denying that there have been victories along the way........

Yops · 29/09/2015 07:42

Doesn't that depend on where you start from? The right to vote; the right to buy property; the right to equal status in the eyes of the law; the right to education; the equal pay act; anti-discriminatory legislation. I'd say they were all pretty substantial victories in the last 100 years or so.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 28/09/2015 23:11

Feminism is victorious?

In what way?

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 22:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scallopsrgreat · 28/09/2015 21:56

Does that matter to you? You seem quite happy to attribute thoughts to us anyway, no matter what we think.

I think a significant amount of men do deliberately subjugate women. I also think, as shovetheholly said there is plenty of evidence that regular men who you wouldn't consider were necessarily misgoynists or violent towards women are quite happy to keep the status quo, deliberately. Because all men benefit from that subjugation and their inactivity in counteracting it is colluding in women's suppression. So although it may be unconscious or lethargy it is still contributing.

Yops · 28/09/2015 20:56

So do you believe it or not?

scallopsrgreat · 28/09/2015 20:35

Yops, you were the one who interjected on this thread to make spurious comments about what feminism is about and what you thought some unnamed people thought. You do this a lot. Speak about what you think feminists believe with a bit of a 'I don't really believe you' edge. But without actually coming out and saying what you believe. It's dishonest. And saying you are trying to avoid mansplaining by doing this is also dishonest.

So you don't believe men subjugate women deliberately? Now we all know where we stand. You telling us what you believe, honestly, in response to a direct question isn't mansplaining. You telling us what you think we believe is mansplaining. HTH.

NiNoKuni · 28/09/2015 18:39

Would there be the hijab

Interestingly, with the matrilineal Tuareg people, it's the men that take the veil upon acheiving manhood.

The wiki entry on matrilineality is also fascinating reading (if a little oddly written in places).

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 18:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

abbieanders · 28/09/2015 18:19

In that case, we'd have to consider socialisation pretty heavily in the mix, rather than some culturally relative trans-fucking-historical testicles of objectivity theory about evo-bollocks, I reckon.

Yes exactly. This is why I think that society would have gone such a radical change that it's impossible to speculate about what the effects would be - we don't really know what would create the circumstances where women are socialised differently, what other aspects of society would have changed in tandem and whether life is organised around power and profession.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 28/09/2015 18:13

They would, which is why they have similar in children's seats.

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 17:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

squidzin · 28/09/2015 17:32

I dont know why seatbelts can't be X shaped and clasp in the middle of the chest.

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 17:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yops · 28/09/2015 17:27

I asked a couple of posters other than you, Buffy, a couple of questions. The someone asked me a direct question, and I responded. But what it feels like now is that I've been caught by the school prefect and asked what I'm doing sneaking around the grounds.

I haven't goaded you into anything. I don't believe I even addressed you. You took that upon yourself.

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 17:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

squidzin · 28/09/2015 17:21

The biggest phallic symbol in London, The Shard, is also completely empty. Basically a massive eye-sore waste of space.

Millions of people homeless. Millions of empty spaces in some sort of phallic triumph...

NiNoKuni · 28/09/2015 17:15

One big dome with a smaller one on top Grin

But if you listen to some architects, they'll tell you that the way we live in and occupy a building shapes your life and affects your mood. So I wonder if we didn't have all these phallic buildings about and had lower, rounder ones, would that affect hierarchical societal structures too? Like Arthur's round table, style of thing. I may also be talking complete arse!

Got to take DS to the doctor now, but will be back later!

squidzin · 28/09/2015 16:52

Would it be two domes, NiNo? lol.
Would there be the hijab (getting serious...)?

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 16:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NiNoKuni · 28/09/2015 16:35

I've often wondered if and how the world would look if women had had more power. Even if you change just one thing, say matrilineal inheritance instead of patrilineal, what would the effects have been? Or down to seemingly innocuous things like architecture. Would the Washington Monument be a dome?

Yops · 28/09/2015 16:09

I respect you enough not to butt in any further. How is that?

Swipe left for the next trending thread