Raping Asian girls worse than raping white girls because it 'harms their marriage prospects' :o

I find this appalling. I think the judge should be removed from the bench.

And yes, it's imying that certain women and girls are trash. The judge doesn't specify whether it's black girls, white council estate girls, Thai girls whose mothers have been brought over for marriage, or what? All we learn from this is that the pain of raped women and girls is judged as different if the men they are associated with behave as though their property has been tarnished

Dividing women against each other. That old chestnut.
I hate it.

The judge was also an Asian Muslim maybe that had some bearing on the sentencing

that actually makes the decision worse.
She should not be sentencing applying her personal perspectives.

Your last paragraph is however exactly what this sentence says.

Rape is a violent act, the collective whole needs to stop thinking rape as a crime of passion. Oh the menz couldn't control themselves as she has a skirt on. I think the majority of MN users would agree.

The judge was also an Asian Muslim maybe that had some bearing on the sentencing.

I see what some of you are saying in that it devalues someone else's rape if they are not in a community like the girl in question is. But I still see it as something that has added extra impact the same way as someone who would suffer panic attacks or mental health problems after.

We don't say oh that victim didn't suffer less because she seems to of picked herself up and isn't suicidal and so her rape wasn't as horrific, so why would we say oh she's white with a supportive family so her rape wasn't as horrific.

It does beg the question, though - what would the sentence have been, if he had raped and abused white girls? To me, it does suggest that the judge would have thought that, as it wouldn't be considered that white girls would have been as degraded and shamed within their communities, his sentence might have been lower.

If he says, I have added to his sentence because he raped asian girls, in the full knowledge of how their community would view them afterwards, and how they'd be shamed, the corollary of that, to me, is that white girls would have deserved a lower sentence for their attacker, because they might not be shamed in the same way.

As I said last night, victim impact should be taken into account at sentencing, but to say one group of victims will deserve a heavier sentence for their attacker than others just sounds wrong to me - because if you flip it round, it is saying that rape and abuse is not as bad, not as traumatic for white girls/non-asian girls - and I cannot see how it can be acceptable to tell anyone that their rape wasn't as bad!!

There was a huge furore a while back, when a public figure (perhaps a judge, I can't remember) said that rape that didn't involve violence was better than rape that did - to me, this seems like the same thing - putting value judgements on different rapes, and effectively telling one person, or group of people that they don't have as much right to feel hurt, traumatised or to get justice, as another group.

Also, the crime against the younger girl was described as sexual assault; I doubt that would cover simply watching something. And the review stated that if the judge had considered the crimes individually, she could have gone up a category. I don't know what that means but it implies something (even more) serious.

Element, that's an unfair interpretation.

Old, I see where you are coming from, however, I still have a huge problem with the description "performing oral sex" as this is the description for an act with free consent. It's similar to the problem with calling something "child pornography" instead of "filmed child abuse"

slugs it's about the offender more than the victims, and about how he knew he was doing something extremely degrading and shameful within that culture.
Oh, so he thought it was fine to rape white girls; he didn't think that was degrading? And you don't think he should be punished for this view?

I don't understand where the bit about raping asian girls being 'worse than raping white girls' came from!

It is a sad fact that asian victims will be victimised further in the asian society and it is high time for that culture and mentality to change. The paedophile who did this knew very well the impact it would have on these girls' lives. Is what happened to these girls worse than if it was white girls? No. Their future however, due to the culture they come from, is much more bleak than the choices and options available to white girls. The asian culture is responsible for the further victimisation of these girls.

I agree with you completely here Seneca:

I think it is difficult to use external context, cultural and otherwise, as part of victim impact in sexual assault cases without raising the specter of relative value of victims. In addition, the worst of the impact may not manifest itself for many years for quite a few victims so it's a very inexact approach.

I read the judgment. I am not that familiar with English law and procedure, but why was it even necessary to introduce the cultural elements to defend this sentence? I know that US criminal justice systems come in for a lot of criticism, but in my US state, he would have had a much longer sentence for sexually assaulting children, and no further justification for the sentence would be needed.

I think it is difficult to use external context, cultural and otherwise, as part of victim impact in sexual assault cases without raising the specter of relative value of victims. In addition, the worst of the impact may not manifest itself for many years for quite a few victims so it's a very inexact approach.

I am not an absolutist about many things, and I do have problems with a lot of the mandatory sentencing laws in the US, but with sexual violence, I am inclined to agree with the lock 'em up and throw away the key approach.

Yonic, well the point here was that the offender wasn't charged with rape.

"The offence of sexual activity with a child is normally charged where a victim is aged 13 to 15 and the child maintains that they agreed to the sexual activity. Where a victim is over 13, lack of consent would need to be proved to obtain a rape conviction. Where a victim over the age of 13 maintains they have consented to the sexual activity, a charge of rape is unlikely to be successfully prosecuted. However, due to the age of the child, the offence of sexual activity with a child can be charged and successfully prosecuted instead of rape. This is because there needs to be proof only that the offender engaged in the sexual activity, irrespective of whether the child maintains that they agreed to the activity.
"

So if the offender had said to the 13-year-old 'suck my dick', and she said 'ok', then he wouldn't be charged with rape, only 'sexual activity with a child'. And it's a lesser offence. But you are right in the sense that oral sex falls into the same category as vaginal sex in the context of that offence.

a lass I missed that, sorry. The point still stands though, but it's more directed to the vile court ruling

Asian victims of child sex crimes suffer more than white children and their attackers should accordingly be punished more severely, the court of appeal has ruled

How the hell do judges sitting on a court of appeal know that Asians suffer more than white children. Are they sitting inside their heads. How insufferably arrogant of these judges.

Do I think there are cultures where men think white girls and women are trash? Yes. But they also think black girls and women are dirty trash. In fact in the West, the disposability and worthlessness and rapeability of black women "because they're sluts" still is not entirely dead.

This is about men, and men making the rape of women about men. It's women being shafted once again. Not just white women, not just muslim women but all women. If you think this means the rape of muslim women is being viewed as worse, therefore muslim women are being treated better I think you might have misread what's going on here. At no point are the feelings of the women being considered and that is VILE. Rape is about the VICTIMS and how it affects THEM. Not how fuckable they'll be now, god i want to cry/scream/vomit.

This attitude is the reason it took me four months to tell my boyfriend I was sexually assaulted. I assumed he'd value me less.

What was the actual wording in the judgement? The Guardian report said.

Asian victims of child sex crimes suffer more than white children and their attackers should accordingly be punished more severely, the court of appeal has ruled

Indeed bigchoc moreso on the other thread it's "so this means white girls are trash."

I agree with the points and hate to do what seems like nitpicking on such a serious topic, but I think people are forgetting there's not just one mush of non-white people and white people. if it suggests white girls are trash, it also suggests black, east asian, non muslim south asian etc are also trash.

So I think it's less about racially condemning white girls and more about a judge playing into the age old bullshit that rape of women is worse for men and that womens worth is measured on their value to men, and that once again women's trauma, pain and emotions come last.

I think signing a petition to downgrade this man's sentence is vile

I think you have spectacularly missed the point.

Yonic - I definitely agree with the impact on the victim being taken into account - but it must be judged individually, on a case by case basis, not with blanket rules that say X crime is worse for members of this ethnic group than that one.

Fauchelevant Yes, I frequently have to remind Mumsnetters that not all of us (BME) are Muslim.
I don't even know if they form the majority of BME, but mention race on MN and that's where the discussion goes. Maybe it's the Kipperati here.

The judgement said they also took into account the fact that the whole family was isolated and shamed by the community.
I find those attitudes shameful, frustrating, insulting.

I wish a lot of the imams could come together and ask people to support victims of rape and sexual abuse, to respect them.

imo, This judgement is very divisive; a leap backwards wrt race relations and women's rights

No worries scallops, useful reminder that irony, particularly the savage variety I was attempting in righteous rage, doesn't work onscreen. Yet.

That is interesting slug.

Rape of course is a violent punishing sort of crime and he knew full well he would continue punishing her for years and years after.

The judge knew he was fully aware of what he was doing and sentenced him accordingly.