Article in Huffpost about transphobia in midwifery

I agree completely. Some people think about this stuff far too much. I think it's really bizarre to be that obsessed with your sexual identity. The fact is, no one cares what it is apart from you. To everyone else it's totally unimportant and slightly ridiculous.

And it really fecking doesn't matter how you see yourself. Everyone is unique and everyone has their own unique mix of (perceived) 'masculine' and 'feminine' attributes.

So effing what, really. Who actually cares? Not many of us, I'd guess.

(by the way I am not trying to sockpuppet, I have already posted on this thread but have incidentally namechanged for different reasons)

Yes, it really gets in my tits rain

I will not be defined by 'gender', especially by relationship to someone else's 'gender'

Because a small group of people invest way too much of their identity on some outward projection of masculinity or femininity, I am 'cis gendered'? Cannot be referee to in child birth literature as a woman? A mother? Childbirth and pregnancy are not women's issues?

Seriously, gender theory can Fuck off

Have read the article and just googled "genderqueer" to find it means "not exclusively masculine or feminine" - guess that means 99% of us are genderqueer? So how useful is that term? (Sorry for the beginner's question)

I totally agree with In a May

Giving birth has nothing to do with your gender, it is about your sex

Only females/women give birth, and when they do they become mothers

Whether they like it or not, they are facts

I just read that because ha gave birth and was breastfeeding being man La Leche League changed rules and now men can teach women how to breastfeed i.e. be breastfeeding coach.

It feels like he thinks he can bully everyone to use HIS view of the world.

I can't get my head around it and IMHO his actions are very selfish.

Not sure I'm really qualified Sunshine and aware in retrospect my post was pretty unhelpful as it's not like you can just purchase yourself a trans friend and expect them to answer all your questions! I think what I was getting at was that the more trans people I meet the more I understand. Still don't quite get it, as I've never had that experience but it is starting to make a bit more sense.
Also aware this has drifted from your original discussion. As you were...

Interesting article about a transman being worried about violence in male only spaces like a place where everyone is naked (locker room maybe). It seems fairly obvious they would feel worried and would be in danger. Which is a sad indictment on men in general.

I would love to know what makes people 'feel' trans. Yes, I do know people in real life but it is a hard question to ask.

Vasha you are right, I don't know any trans people. The opportunity hasn't come up to meet any.

If I had a trans friend then yes no doubt I would discuss these emerging issues with him or her.

However, as the opportunity hasn't come up and I am still interested in the issues chatting them through on MN seems reasonable to me.

For a controversial issue this thread has stayed (I think) largely polite, but you are right it could do with someone to explain the opposing view - are you volunteering?

I only know one transwoman well. I'm sure she'd agree that the removal of the word women from midwifery literature is crazy.
I don't know any transmen. I guess you could argue that a transwoman has as little in common with a transman as i do.

Succinct and to the point.

vashta I know plenty of trans people, thanks. It's just that the ones I know aren't barking mad or misogynists. Expressing deep hurt that midwives are objecting to the removal of the word "woman" from literature about pregnancy and birth makes you one or the other in my eyes.

I've asked for my last post to go as I think I crossed a line. I'd like to apologise. I am probably also wrong. You are right, I don't know, as far as I know, any transgender people. I have encountered some who have been perfectly pleasant. I still don't understand a heck of a lot of the issues. But no one should be as rude as I was last night.

Often on these threads there are people with trans friends who also challenge some aspects of trans activism. I don't always agree with them but I do respect that they've at least tried to understand.
There are posters on here who clearly don't know many trans people because some of these questions could easily be answered by chatting to people.
I'm not sure what point I'm making here really... maybe just that these threads escalate so quickly and I know trans friends (male and female) who would answer your questions politely and respectfully if you ever met. I know plenty of trans feminists who agree the patriarchy is damaging and that gender is a social construct, it's not as simple as fem vs trans which is the way these threads tend to head.

What a load of cobblers. pregnant man is as ridiculous as female penis IMHO. this sort of thing gets my back up and makes me less likely to be accepting of transpeople, don't they realise the damage they are doing?

I agree, Gudrun; just addressing the likely stated response to the cognitive dissonance Hermione identified.

like one of the btl posters said, midwife means 'with woman'
AFAIAC if the woman who is pregnant/birthing chooses to call herself a man, it's only polite to go along with it
but really, they are a woman! because they are HAVING A BABY

I know, Gudrun ... It's all so much meh, let people do what they like, until you realise the depth & completeness with which the trans narrative eradicates sex differences, and elevates gender.

Arab men wear dresses, kiss each other and hold hands in public. I don't think many would be too thrilled to be told they are women.

Don't you know that the ability to become pregnant doesn't define you as a woman? Men can have babies too, now!

if the perception of one's womb is that it's a male womb, why not?

Because male specifically means that you don't have a womb. It's the definition of male.

All the cultural shit is ephemeral. Trousers, skirts, long hair, short hair, manual work, pink and blue - it's all male or female, depending on your century, your associations, your environment.

NOTHING cultural is actually, definably male. Therefore the only valid, scientific definition of male is a biological one.

Culturally, anything goes.

yonic and that's where my head explodes and I think these people are delusional and mentally ill rather than trans anything

I still don't get how anyone can 'identify as a man' or 'identify as a woman'.

How is that even defined? because every blog or article about someone who is 'transgender' appears to want to challenge what 'women' or 'men' are supposed to do, and not to do, completely.

So what's the point? It's like if I said 'Hey I identify as a [garden gnome] (whatever) so please recognise that I have a right to be a garden gnome as much as the next, genuine, born-that-way garden gnome. Oh and by the way, I think garden gnomes ought to be able to be alive, and they shouldn't be made of concrete, and they should physically be able to act just like, uh, women, too.'

So you're basically saying you identify as what you already are but you want to be called a garden gnome.

Great.

Yy Womb. And congrats!

cadnowyllt, what do you mean? I have much higher T than the average woman, due to PCOS. It makes fertility a little tricky, causes a few side effects I don't especially like, but it doesn't make me an iota less female. points to 18 week pregnant belly

Hermione, if the perception of one's womb is that it's a male womb, why not?

I'm another one delighted that someone is standing up against the erasure of women. Women and transmen if you must, but "pregnant individuals" is ridiculous.

And I cannot get your head around feeling you're in the wrong body and then doing the most ultimately womanly thing there is to do (pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding). Why would a TM want to use their woman's body in that way?