9 things that do make you a better feminist

Well, we are all terribly aggressive lentil-weaving feminists here

I don't think MRA and feminists are ever really going to be firm friends. I think we spend enough time worrying about men's feelings. A feminist space should be a respite from that.

Other spaces...well, how would you feel about MN having an MRA board?

Yeah- I've been banned from several of their spaces! But I do wonder. There are plenty of mumsnetters who share some of their vIews, and might see their deletion as proof positive that feminists think that they are right and won't consider other points of view. Oh, I don't know......

I'm not sure I care much what MRAs think. They have their own spaces in which to put forth their ideas, they don't need ours. I'm pretty sure it's read by most (?) other people as an eye roll and sigh from MNHQ and not 'Quick, we must suppress these unequivocal truths!'.

If they were saying constructive things, it'd be a different story.

Is everyone convinced that automatically deleting MRA is the right thing to do? It's obviously mn policy- but is it the right thing to do? Could it not be read- by them- as them getting to us?

"I still don't understand why men can't be feminists - surely if you support gender equality you're a feminist? Men can also be the victim of sexism. Can you not support racial equality if you're white or sexuality equality if you're straight?"

In my experience, men who have thought deeply about these issues prefer to call themselves "feminist allies" - acknowledging that they do not have shared experience. I would prefer this too, personally. But I'm not going to get bent out of shape if a man calls himself a feminist. So long as he doesn't use any discussion to demand his right to the label, or proceed to tell women how to do feminism. As someone wise recently said "Men don't need space in feminism- they need to take the space they already have and make it feminist"

""#7) Not being an MRA"

So to be a better feminist, you have to make sure not to care about men's issues like prostate cancer, male homelessness/prison population/suicides etc?

Got it. jots down notes on notepad"

Of course those things are important. The problem with MRA is that they say a) that these things are women's fault and b) that it is women who should do something about them.

I still don't understand why men can't be feminists - surely if you support gender equality you're a feminist? Men can also be the victim of sexism. Can you not support racial equality if you're white or sexuality equality if you're straight?

I've said this before, a male feminist is like a white South African under apartheid.

You may agree with equality and want to see it happen, but you still get the better education, better paid job, respect in restaurants/cafes, if you are attacked you will be believed.

Deep I know what you're saying. It just depends on your understanding of feminism. If you are on the more radical end, you tend to understand feminism as women's liberation from male oppression. Said oppression is something all women have experienced in one way or another and the oppressing class can't be part of a movement to liberate the oppressed class from that; however they may be able to be allies. So, being born into oppression is a part of what women share and men don't, and it is what men can't understand (don't get and don't get that they don't get) - Karen Ingala Smith puts her point across very well here if you want to read more on this perspective.

In the analogy, white people can be allies to black people, they can be anti-racist, but they cannot understand what it means to be black and they cannot 'rescue' or lead a movement to liberate black people as it then becomes meaningless and opens itself up to all manner of further oppressions, well-meaning or not.

On the more liberal end, feminism is about working towards equality between the sexes, and yes, men can generally be a part of that.

Like I said, it's your own personal judgement based on your own interpretation of feminism. If you've never been wolf-whistled at and never felt oppression based on your sex, then I'm really happy for you!

I think goaway really summarised my views on the issue perfectly.

You have disabused me of nowt.

There's another issue where people argued that a rich white man only committed those crimes because of mh issues, whereas a poorer guy from a different race mightnt have had that said for him. But certainly Rodgers memoirs and actions werent lauded (unless you count on very niche forums, which I don't. That's like saying the views of all radfems = views of all women).

NiNo, I don't know ... that seems ... Misplaced as an analogy somehow? Yes, Stan doesn't get it. He's an inept dumb kid character (and many people are a bit beyond that anyway). He also finally realises, "I get it: I don't get it". He becomes a better Equal-Rights activist without having to claim to be black himself.

Likewise men can be Feminist without being women themselves. It's a political movement and not an inherent trait like skin colour. I'm thinking of my DH here who is a stronger feminist than I am (and some misogynist women I know). He might not be able to "understand women's experience fully" but that doesn't mean he can't emphasise or see the problems and think that there's inequality. Indeed as a fellow woman I don't claim to understand all womankind's experiences. I've never been raped. I've never been wolf whistled at or harassed because I'm female. As far as I know, I'm paid the equal rate in my industry. Does that lack of experience make me a misogynist too? I bloody hope not!

Am I explaining this well? probably not which is why I should steer clear of this type of topic and will back off if you tell me to!

Actually considering that Elliot Rodgers shooting and the subsequent discovery of his memoirs was condemned globally I think it's ridiculous to say that men hating women is accepted with a shrug.

Well, if you imagine that his crimes were universally attributed to his misogyny, I'm very sorry to have to disabuse you. Many argued that he murdered those people because he was just crazy rather than crazed by a hatred of women.

As a second waver, I especially like No. 5. Ageism raises its ugly head quite frequently on MN, less so in FWR, although it does sometimes happen.

Feminism is a political movement, an ideology, not what you or I do as individuals, goaway.

I quite liked that list.
I happen to not hate 'men', but have an intense dislike for some people, some of which happen to be male
I do hate patriarchy as a social system for how damaging it is to vast swathes of females around the world (and to some men).

i refuse to hate a human being based on their organs just for their actions

Actually considering that Elliot Rodgers shooting and the subsequent discovery of his memoirs was condemned globally I think it's ridiculous to say that men hating women is accepted with a shrug.
In parts of the world (India, I'm looking at you) it may be more accepted, but unfair to say it is accepted.

I don't think it's possible to fully function while hating half the population

Many men manage perfectly well. It amuses me no end that there's such hand wringing about the possibility of women hating men. Whereas the tremendous, pathological hatred so many men feel for women is grand, just get over it and get a life.

One results in women abstaining from relationships with men, the other in murder, rape, all kinds of mayhem that we accept with a shrug.

It's a reference to the article that prompted her to write this.

Why do people have to be 'better'?

Since when has it become a competition?