Charlotte Proudman

Presumably he is heterosexual and so is unlikely to have those sorts of aesthetic responses to men.

Well, yes. That is what makes it sexist.

Don't think there is sufficient evidence to support her responding accusations of sexism and misogyny.

The evidence is that bit you just said about not replying like that to men. It's right there in that sentence you just wrote.

Exactly

Terribly un pc to admire the quality of a photograph because reasons.

Except of course that it's bloody obvious to all but the deliberately obtuse or the terminally stupid that he wasn't admiring the lighting and composition of the photo but was making a poorly judged an ill conceived pass at a woman the same age as his daughter.

What exactly is Un pc about admiring another professionals photo quality?

Can anyone explain what is Un pc about admiring the quality of another

cailindana
It's good of you also to fell women what they should and shouldn't think, feel and do. How would we manage without you?

Not sure where what women should 'think' and 'feel' comes from, but if you want to go down that route on 'do' I could complain about how terrible it is that all those women are telling him that he shouldn't have done what he did. But I won't. Anyone is free to think that he shouldn't have complimented her on her photo, and anyone is free to think that OTOH there is insufficient evidence to justify some of the specific things she accused him of in response, and so she perhaps shouldn't have made those specific claims of him at this stage.

Yes. She could have chosen to put up and shut up but why should she? I suspect for every one like her who speaks out there are ten thousand women who put up and shut up. In that context she's barely made a dent.

Proportion. Blown. Way. Out. Of. Why exactly does she need to be vilified? And excuses made for the guy at every turn?

She has a point, and people are reacting as if she accused the guy of rape...

Wow JAPAB, you are the gift that keeps on giving, aren't you?

She posted the exchange as an example of the endless sexist twatbadgery she gets.

'The reaction has been incredible - woman speaks out and gets vilified for it'

Yep, more of the same tedious shit. Any woman who sticks her nose above the parapet gets hung drawn and quartered on Twitter and then it just spreads like wildfire. So of course, the best thing to do is just keep our mouths shut and get on with life in silence

An 'aesthetic' response might have been - 'by the way, the photo you use looks extremely professional. The quality of the lighting looks great. Do you mind me asking where you had it done?'

What I don't get is that the bloke knew he was being offensive, and admitted to it, and yet she still gets the blame!

JAPAB wrote - "Presumably he is heterosexual and so is unlikely to have those sorts of aesthetic responses to men."

I think what you describe as his "aesthetic" response to people on a business website being dependent on him acting in line with his own sexuality should be seen as a problem, not an excuse.

'I'm shocked at the level of handmaidenry and apologism'

Oh. My. God. - same here. You have to keep pinching yourself and reminding yourself that this is 2015. I was listening to the radio yesterday and there were callers, mostly women, absolutely falling over themselves to stick all of the blame on her.

It's so fucking tedious and exhausting. Calm down dear, its just a joke. Just a compliment. Just a bit of banter. Can't a man compliment a woman any more? The usual old tiresome shit, over and over and over again. She said she had several sleazy comments on her LinkedIn page just that week, which she had ignored, but I don't blame her for cracking and giving him both barrels. Why the fuck should a woman just have to keep on putting up and shutting up?

Of course she used an attractive photo of herself, in which she looks smart and professional. And he knew damn well that he was being a sleaze, because he referred to the comment as 'horrendously politically incorrect' before he even wrote it! And then followed it up with some awful creepy stuff about wanting to make links and share skills with her. Barf. And of course he would never have written anything like this to a male colleague. I mean COME ON PEOPLE! What's with all the muppets making excuses for him???? I am furious about this, as I'm sure you can tell

I hope that Charlotte Proudman is ok and that she feels she made the right decision, both to reply to him as she did and to refer to it on Twitter.

I have responded in a similar way to LinkedIn messages.

However, there is something about her attitude that is slightly off putting, and as she now represents all women I rather hate that.

So his choice of 'stunning' was to do with his sexuality was it JAPAB? Interesting.

It's good of you also to fell women what they should and shouldn't think, feel and do. How would we manage without you?

I think the test of this is: he might have complimented a male colleague on the quality of photography, but I don't think he would use the word "stunning" to describe a photo of a man. So....yup, sexist.

Presumably he is heterosexual and so is unlikely to have those sorts of aesthetic responses to men. But of course, we can only speculate on what we suspect he would or wouldn't do. Don't think there is sufficient evidence to support her responding accusations of sexism and misogyny. She perhaps should have just stuck to calling it inappropriate and offensive.

I think the test of this is: he might have complimented a male colleague on the quality of photography, but I don't think he would use the word "stunning" to describe a photo of a man. So....yup, sexist.

Of course she put up a good photo of herself. Anyone would. Men trying to impress other men on LinkdIn would put up a good photo of themselves in preference to one making them look like shit. Her hair, makeup and clothes (what you can see of the jacket) all look professional, not like she is angling for "wot a stunna" thoughts and comments.

I think photos are a massive problem. I really, really hate photos of me. I'm not particularly shy, and I'm not vain, but there's something about a photo that makes me uncomfortable. It's just how I look, with none of my personality. And I prefer me with my personality tbh.

Maybe it is the judgement thing. I'm reasonably confident that when people meet me they quite like me (in general) but I worry that when all they have to go on is how I look then I won't make a good impression.

And maybe that's the thing with LinkedIn. It's supposed to be about your professional capabilities, with photos to help you recognise people, but this man made it all about the woman's looks. He reduced her to just a her appearance, ignoring her achievements and potential.

"And me wanting an attractive picture on the board wasn't because I wanted service users to like it, I just didn't want to look shit."

I think it is because, without really thinking about it, you know that people will judge you on how you look, whatever happens. And as unfair as it is, people always judge those who look attractive more positively than those who don't.

And sometimes you just feel more confident. Partly because we are told from the early stages of life that you are worthy if you are attractive, and partly because it's just a ritual.

My old company used to have photos on our website, and I hated it, I dodged the photographer for ages before they pinned me down. I'm not photogenic. I didn't want to be on the website. But then I wanted to pick a flattering photo. Partly because I knew it was presenting myself to the world and I know that people go around making judgements on people's looks. Some of my friends (male, never female curiously) openly admit to googling applicants for jobs they are recruiting for "to look for the hot ones to interview". It's really hard to protect yourself from this game while at the same time try to point out how unfair it is.

I don't know, I really struggle with these thoughts too Icould..., I've spent much time and money trying to figure out the self-image and self esteem conundrum!

I have to be honest, it wasn't just FB for me. I work in MH and in the past when I worked on MH units which had a 'welcome, these people are your care teams' board so new service users admitted knew people who the people caring for them were - I annoyed ward photographers by making them take numerous photos till I was happy with one.

The service users didn't give a shit - they liked me because I was good at my job, attentive, caring, experienced and friendly within a professional framework but it mattered to me for some reason. The people (service users) don't didn't give a shit, they would have asked for me to talk to/escort them on outside visits etc and it sounds weird but I think we all - as human beings see beauty in who we like and feel safe with. So i'd always hear ' you're beautiful' from service users. And I never wanted that and it would be inappropriate professionally to accept that but I know It's because as a society we find beauty in what/who makes us feel safe or happy?. And me wanting an attractive picture on the board wasn't because I wanted service users to like it, I just didn't want to look shit.

How many of us thought our Mums/primary carers were beautiful even if they didn't meet the usual society standard?.

FFS. I think I may have just answered a question about why we have so many different opinions in society about what is attractive or beautiful!.

But why do I want to be viewed as attractive but not want it based on physical appearence?.

It IS though isn't it?. I've known many wonderful men that I can imagine myself being in a relationship with but can't imagine fancying enough to have sex with.

So physical appearence must play a part?. But I don't want to be judged on my physical appearence.

Argh!

I could - you've identified one of the many tightropes that women need to walk on.

Women are given the message from day one that their appearance matters. Little girls are complimented all the time on their appearance, far more than boys are. As they grow up they see constant ads about make up, hair dye, wrinkle cream etc etc all with the very unsubtle message that as a woman you should care about these things, you shouldn't 'let yourself go.' Women are made to feel vain and self obsessed if they do worry about their appearance but are branded as frumpy if they do not. They simply can't win.

So the fact that you deliberately choose your best photo to post on facebook is not surprising at all and you are by no means failing as a feminist.

If a stranger tells your you're attractive they are praising your for fitting their expectations. They are not telling you they like you as a person, they are saying thank you for fulfilling the criteria I have set for you in order to acceptable. It is not a compliment - it is merely stating that you have passed their test and giving you a pat on the head for it.

Google 'women short hair men'- that alone will give you insight into the rhetoric around women and attractiveness.

Icould...it is human nature to be a bit vain, and in our culture, attractiveness is very valuable. No one wants to feel ugly, it's very isolating. The world is a cruel place if you don't fit in, so it's normal to want to blend in as much as possible, and this means fitting in with standards of what is attractive. So I can see why people only want to present themselves at their best.

Sometimes comments are just pure flattery, which feels nice if it is from people who know you and respect you for who you are. A friend who knows you saying you look nice is doing so to make you feel good, and they may just be complimenting you on your make-up/hair/whatever, so while it may not sit well with you philosophically, you take it in the spirit it is meant. A random person seeking out women they don't know on FB and commenting on their attractiveness feels more predatory and intrusive.

I don't think LinkenIn is the same as Facebook at all, but then I'd only use Facebook for personal stuff and only my friends would see it. LinkedIn is supposed to be a professional network, so commenting on people's attractiveness is just not on, and I think it's reasonable to expect those standards. The same as the differenence between someone commenting on your looks in a bar on a night out, and someone commenting on your looks at your industry's annual conference. I'd be far more unimpressed with the latter.

I was uncomfortable with the whole "broadcast it to twitter thing" initially.

But then I thought "wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been a twat in the first place".

Just a pity that there are even more twats out there to give her such a hard time to daring to stick up for herself.