So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

A denial is usually issued in response to an accusation. What you said makes it sound like you are suspicious of people who say they don't have one, it's not a neutral phrasing at all.

That is not what I meant. Every time gender is mentioned the stock response from many posters on FWR is they don't have a gender. A denial that it applies to them. I have not said I think it applies.

I for one am really very offended that lass thinks dresses and heels are the only acceptable clothing choices for proper women.

I never said anything of the sort.

At least my brain gets a rest, it's not easy trying to keep up with buffy and holly

I can't do another episode of The Lass Show, where she is allowed to criticise everyone else's everyday language but no one can criticise hers.

Night all.

Lass it feels a bit like you're after a fight.

It's not combative for a person to say that they personally don't know what it feels like to have a gender id, or what that could comprise or be, that they can't understand it, because they are talking about their own feelings.

A denial is usually issued in response to an accusation. What you said makes it sound like you are suspicious of people who say they don't have one, it's not a neutral phrasing at all.

"for those of you who deny you have a gender" is combative because it implies you think that those who do so are mistaken or in denial of a true fact.

Saying "Deny you have an identity" is combative? So what about the many , many posts on FWR saying things such as posters have no gender identity or they don't understand what anyone means by a gender identity or they don't have a gender?

Including the one above saying "I have no gender identity"?

I'm not judging the girls I am interested to note that current fashions for primary school girls, at the school my daughters attend, are very firmly at the more feminine end of the scale. I note that this has not always been the way. I wonder what this says about our society more widely.

How that can be taken as slagging off individual little girls - I don't get it. My own children wear skirts and have very long hair. I mean clearly I don't have a problem with them. I also wear a skirt to work every day myself and wear very high heels in the office. Because I feel like it. I honestly couldn't give a monkeys what individuals get up to, but when large groups of people are all doing the same thing for no obvious reason or benefit, I wonder why that is.

I really think you are taking this very personally - it was a really innocuous observation.

Yy to Fingles. If "it" was the pronoun du jour for all people, that'd be fine.

I have no gender identity. I'm happy to be referred to as 'she' because I understand it to mean 'an individual who happens to have a female reproductive system'. I'd quite like it if we had pronouns that weren't sex-specific, because in many contexts it's not overly relevant what genitals the person in question has. I assume trans people generally dislike pronouns associated with their birth sex because such pronouns serve as a reminder of the sexed body about which they feel dysphoric.

That wasn't my point- for those of you who deny you have a gender - can having a gender at its most basic be no more than being comfortable being called "she" ?

ALass I'm not "comfortable" being called "she". I'm not "uncomfortable" about it, either. I don't care about it one way or another. My DS used to get called "she" all the time, and didn't notice, much less care. There's nothing "natural" or "comfortable" about it, it's just a convention. As the old saying goes - call me anything you like, just don't call me late for dinner.

And you seem to be awfully keen on pushing a concept on people who insist that concept doesn't apply to them. You can dilute that concept all you like in an effort to make it fit, but if people don't have a gender, just a sex, then that's it.

Going back to those online surveys, I'm another "cisgendered male" (despite having identified myself in question one as biologically female )

"Lass this "for those of you who deny you have a gender" feels quite combative."

Indeed it does, whirlpool.

Lass this "for those of you who deny you have a gender" feels quite combative.

I understand that you strongly identify with being female (gender / internal sense) and that is just fine.

Can't you extend the same courtesy to those who don't?

It's not nitpicking lass, it's an observation. Please read what's actually there, not your preconception based on what another person might have said to you once in the past.

Lass, I think discomfort with one's body is a feature for many trans people

Yes I'm sure it is. That wasn't my point- for those of you who deny you have a gender - can having a gender at its most basic be no more than being comfortable being called "she" ?

whirling for not caring what people wear you seem to care an awful lot.

Times change/fashions change. You mentioned what was in style when you were at school. It's different now -so what? Were you as judgemental of the girls with short hair and punk haircuts as you are of the girls with long hair?

I have said it before but I find this nitpicking over what women and girls wear tedious. I can't remember who it was but I was told by an FWR poster that the difference between her and me was that she thought about her clothes choices. How patronising. (as it is I actively avoid wherever possible buying clothes not made in the EU)

Lass, I think discomfort with one's body is a feature for many trans people

I meant to mention this ages ago but really not having a gender- could being comfortable with your societal gender not just mean "she" "her" "hers" sounds natural?

I'm making the assumption none of you feel strange when addressed as "she" - does a transperson before transitioning experience "he" as alien or uncomfortable? Presumably, yes.

bar one

typing is rubbish today

What a strange response lass this seems to have hit a nerve.

I'm not sure what to say to you. I have observed that an entire school of girls (bat one!) seem to prefer a certain mode of dress and you seem to have taken this as a personal slight as it happens to be the mode of dress that you personally prefer.

I don't really mind what other people wear, I do however notice if pretty much all of an entire group of people have an extremely strong preference for something for which there is no obvious reason for it, and wonder why that is.

When I was at school in the early 80s lots of girls had short hair and punky hairstyles. Now the girls at my DD school prize long hair. I have noticed this. I find it interesting. I write it on here. You react as if I've just thrown a cowpat at you. I don't get it.

Lass

No one belittled them, though I know you always like to think so. Long hair and skirts are more traditionally feminine than short hair and trousers - if all girls are choosing one, or the other, isnt that worthy of comment, whichever option is picked?