So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

I'm still wondering what a good trans person would look like from a feminist perspective.

Try Miranda Yardley or Aofie Assumpta Hart , or, if you go way back to the playbuzz quiz the comments from a transwoman on there. I can't recall the name but it should be obvious as she was so reasonable.

I know you weren't using "look" in a purely physical sense but Aofie "looks" like a dowdy, plain, but friendly and cheerful woman. If she wasn't open about her transition then from photographs I don't think one would assume she was a transwoman. Yet she has had what is deemed by the trans community to be the worst possible insults thrown at her by members of the trans community- namely she is a man and the use of male pronouns to describe her.

I don't think labelling people as "good" or "bad" is going to help anyone is it

There are plenty of gender critical transpeople who take these types of views as well.

And then of course there are loads of transpeople who are just trying to get on with their life as best they can and aren't vocal / interested / whatever about this at all. I mean, people are people aren't they and not everyone takes sides or is engaged with stuff and that's all fine.

I also think that saying the things said are "utterly stupid" is not helpful as to the people saying them (MRA shit-stirrers aside) they are genuine heartfelt expressions of what is right and best to help a group of people who are unarguably at huge risk of harm and discrimination.

Are you always this black and white, whenshe? While I violently disagree with some of the things said, I can understand or at least try to understand where they're coming from. Well not the death threats, but the disconnect from sex and biology and all people should be treated 100% as what they identify as in that moment stuff. I can see why people believe it, quite easily. It's not stupid, it's just not, in my opinion, the right way to approach reducing harm to trans people as it impacts negatively on, um, the people who used to be called women and girls.

As ever of interest is that I've still not seen any / much in the way of men's and boys stuff being changed, prostate exams, condom instructions, that stuff. I don't know. Maybe it's happening too.

I'm still wondering what a good trans person would look like from a feminist perspective.

Well, not trying to shut up female discussions about female sex organs (be it vagina cupcakes or FGM) and feminism just because it isn't relevant to them. Understanding the biological differences and respecting women only space.

I can't talk for other feminists, but there's a lot of sense spoken by people like Miranda Yardley, and I read a very thought out and together blog by someone called transywansy.

They acknowledge who they are, how they're different, and how that's not a bad thing. Where our needs intersect, where they don't etc.

Rather than stomping feet and demanding that I erase bits of myself so they can be validated.

Well I think we can all agree some utterly stupid things are said online about trans issues.

I'm still wondering what a good trans person would look like from a feminist perspective.

Strike that - not behave like a man - if you pretend that you are a man physically - that there is no difference.

I do personally find it difficult to tell the difference between a male MRA-type troll and someone like that. There are men online who make accounts where they say that they're black, female, trans etc and say offensive stuff to create a stir.

Also here are some MRA's talking about using trans identity to invade female spaces:
imgur.com/a/K9sBP

How am I supposed to understand who is saying weird and sexist things online because they believe that vagina cupcakes actually harm transpeople and who says things like that because they're just being sexist and trolling?

Yes Whirl - for years we've asked not to reduce us to wombs on legs, that we're people.

Rather than see that we are people who have wombs though, we only get to be seen as people by pretending that we don't have wombs.

Yet again - we'll listen to you, if you behave like a man.

"I think they mix the idea that it doesn't matter what's in your pants when it comes to what you do and how the world should think about you, with it doesn't matter what's in your pants when it comes to practicalities about interacting with the world and what you might need from the world."

Yes I have been struggling to articulate this to myself.

The suggestion is that feminists are hypocrites because we have always said women and girls should be treated as people and not just as our biology, and now this comes up and we say hold on biology.

Which is a good point on the face of it. But the idea is not that we stop treating women as nothing more than biology, it is suggesting that we totally ignore all of the realities of sex based oppression and the specific problems that the ones who are capable of bearing children face, and also remove the words for describing it.

In a world where all sorts of godawful shit is being done to girls right now, and our reproductive function is bringing countless women and girls untold pain and death, and our reproductive function is the reason that in some parts of the world women and girls are quite literally possessions, then removing the ability to even talk about it is extraordinarily cruel.

I think they mix the idea that it doesn't matter what's in your pants when it comes to what you do and how the world should think about you, with it doesn't matter what's in your pants when it comes to practicalities about interacting with the world and what you might need from the world.

There's a difference between asking someone about what's in their pants so you know what shape bed pan to give them, vs. asking what's in their pants so you know whether a skirt is socially acceptable or not.

TBH, I don't quite get the transwoman's problem with being asked about the reason for having a testosterone prescription (although, going to a nurse with a cold is a bit weird) - HCP need to know history in order to give a correct diagnosis - of course she asked about current medications.

Whirlpool - couldn't agree more!

I mean it's all very well saying it shouldn't matter what you have in your pants how reductive but unfortunately that is how the vast vast vast majority of the world operates and awful things are done to people based on it.

Chunky I read that (well skimmed it ) and the comments and I am at a bit of a loss as to how to refer to people who when they are born people say "it's a girl". The aim is to totally disconnect the terms male, female, man, woman, boy, girl from anything to do with biology. But I think we need to be able to identify these two groups. It seems that many people don't.

I thought her point about it's not just people who identify as trans or are obviously trans who can be trans and so language needs to include that. People who aren't on a gender binary. But we know from on here that many many women aren't on the gender binary and so her point means that the term "women" excludes lots of people who would previously have been thought of as women. But I don't mind being called a woman, and this is on the basis that I am a person who has a female reproductive system. The discomfort in using women from her, is really to do with trans women only because I don't think that many women (I may be wrong) mind being called women on the basis of biology.

So all of this really is to accomodate one very small group of people by changing the words used about a large group of people, and then justifying it by saying well actually the large group of people will benefit from this as well, when they won't.

Say you have a country where 100% of boys are educated and 0% of girls. That's boys and girls in the sense of when they were born people said "it's a boy" or "it's a girl" and proceeded accordingly.

The new way of messaging this, or understanding it, would be that 50% of children are educated.

This is the logical conclusion of where these changes in language take us.

We really need words to describe the people who are born with cunts vs the people who are born with dicks as without that we have literally no way of discussing any of the huge problems faced by people all around the world because of that fact.

It bothers me that so many people just don't seem to care about this at all.

I also think that disregarding anyone with views that you consider to be rather extreme or "out there" as a troll is not sensible.

It's all very well saying oh well that's a niche viewpoint it won't have any effect in real life and ignoring it and then all of a sudden it does and it has and you've missed the boat on putting any opposing views across.

In what sense is this person a troll?

They have a fairly long history of trans activism, other trans activists have written articles supporting them prior to this cupcake thing and defending their masculine appearance.

Isn't the work of an activist to campaign against stuff you disagree with? In the case of trans activism, that is often feminism.

And getting people to pay donations to you if you're a blogger is really normal now. You don't have to be blogging about social justice to do that.

Could be new guidelines that the midwives have seen but not published more widely yet
Could be a draft out for consultation
Don't know i don't work for them!

Do you think the letter might be a hoax?

I've just skimmed the core competencies and found these early on:

The biological wisdom to give birth is innate, it has been held throughout time, and is experienced across cultures by all pregnant people.

Pregnant individuals are the only direct care providers for themselves and their unborn babies, thus the most important determinant of a healthy pregnancy is the pregnant person.

Dunno - a doctor's page who was going on about changing all her practice to not mention women at all (this was in relation to abortion)

rhrealitycheck.org/article/2015/03/18/cisgender-women-arent-people-seek-abortions-activists-language-reflect/

Then she twists knots around how someone my present as cisgender but actually be trans without knowing it. It all seemed a bit patronising if I'm honest.

I had a google of the MANA core competencies (with regard to the midwife letter that Whirlpool linked).

I've only scanned it briefly but I can't see any mention of pregnant individuals. But woman is meantioned quite a lot.

Is this another troll thing, or did MANA change pregnant women to pregnant individuals and then change it back after complaints?

mana.org/about-us/core-documents-of-the-midwives-alliance

So there's people (trolls) out there trying to set feminists and trans against each other?

brair do you have PayPal?

I clicked the link and he (I'm certain this is simply a troll) has an account on a website where you can donate to people, monthly. So you donate to him so he can spread his wisdom on the internets. Wow, should I also get an account like that? Donate, otherwise I couldn't possibly write more posts on the internet?

In the comments someone identifies the source as a person who gets income from trolling the internet making social justice posts

You can get paid for trolling? Not looked into that cupcake thing much but it sounds insane.

I don't really understand why a movement that affects such a small number of people is so dominant at the moment in what seems to be a very destructive way

So what is good trans? Some good examples of trans activists acting like idiots.

But trans people do exist and want a place in society. What should that space look like?