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Original poster

So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

587 replies

Garrick · 31/08/2015 00:28

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong Confused

OP posts:
Andcake · 31/08/2015 08:11

I find it a hard issue to and really struggle with the trans thing ( did anyone else see the trans teen piece in Saturday's times) anyway I don't think I have ever felt particularly male or female I'm just me.
But as a child up until about 9/10 maybe I was v boyish - my parents just let me get on with it and no one went oh she's a boy because she refers certain games or toys.
Ok later on in life I realised men have do many more things going for them in society but hey.
With the trans issue I sometimes feel a bit insulted - how do they know what goes on inside a woman's head - it's almost a weird parady - is caitlin Jenner really braver than so many women struggling every day!
I have no problem with their being an extra 'identity' which is trans - live and let live etc

Thefitfatty · 31/08/2015 08:01

I've several homosexual and trans friends, including my brother, who've assured me that they knew from a young age (usually 5) that they were more attracted to one sex or the other, or that they felt "different" or "not right." However, they didn't identify it as "gay" or "trans" back then, they simply didn't understand it enough. That being said, to say that the boy is transgender just because he's attracted to all things pink and sparkly is not only sexist its just plain silly. Being a woman is a hell of a lot more than a Frozen dress and a love of ballet slippers. Jeez I know a transwoman who wears khakis and plaid shirts cause she hates heels and "dressy" things. It's an inner feeling and identification, not a gender stereotype.

The boy may be gay, straight, transexual, pansexual, asexual, whatever, and the mother is doing the right thing in supporting him and allowing him to wear what he wants, but it's far to early to apply labels or make assumptions.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 31/08/2015 07:59

Those poor kids.

Regardless of what their mother believes this proves (and it proves fuck all) the internet is forever. Newspapers are forever. And her children will never be able to leave an article written about them at the age of 4 behind them.

A 2 yr old I know told his mother that he didn't want to kill her and eat her bones. If we're going to assume that this 2 yr old's wish for his willy to fall off is indicative of his future life, should we maybe have my friend's child locked away because he's also going to become a cannibal serial killer?

cailindana · 31/08/2015 07:49

Why on earth would a little boy's entire life be decided on what he says and does at age four? He doesn't like his willy and he wears dresses. He 4. Women don't wear dresses because of some innate biological or genetic trait. Also dresses do not have magical powers to morph a boy who wears them into a girl.

This whole article is basically 'boy wears clothes that are different to his twin brother's clothes'
Who cares.

EBearhug · 31/08/2015 01:14

Clothing is genetic and has never changed according to fashion or culture or anything, so obviously.

4yos are just as likely to insist they are a cat or a dog or a horse as they are a boy or a girl. He might just be asserting his difference from his twin. And even if he does turn out to be trans or gay or whatever, he's just 4 now and will change in all sorts of ways by the time he gets to be an adult. The insisting he's not a boy thing may remain constant, or he might have forgotten about it in a couple of years. I don't see how will it help anyone to plaster it all over the papers.

Original poster
Garrick · 31/08/2015 01:10

God, I didn't notice that, Lass.

I presume the kids have shaved heads because that's the fashionable style in large swathes of the country. No idea why she's in the Mirror, obvs. Perhaps she wants a new boyfriend and that's why she wore her new short shorts

You might well be right, MrsLeigh! He certainly is getting attention.

I thought both his mother and the psychologist sounded sensible - I was shocked by her estimate that she'll look into transgender counselling if he's still "being a girl" by the age of eight, but four years is a long time in a child's life.

So this is just a kid who likes dressing up and surprising people, and a newspaper making a story out of some cute pictures?
Phew!

OP posts:
ALassUnparalleled · 31/08/2015 01:00

I don't use emoticons but the "lock up your daughters" sweatshirts deserve one of these Confused or these Hmm.

Why do both children have shaved heads?
Why is she plastering this all over a tabloid newspaper?

MrsLeighHalfpenny · 31/08/2015 00:51

If you ask me, he's found a behaviour that gets him a lot of attention, and he's running with it. It'll probably stop when he gets the piss taken out on him when he starts school!

Original poster
Garrick · 31/08/2015 00:47

The twins are adorable :) I just don't know whether I need to reframe my ideas about gender or not. Boys can be feminine and girls can be masculine; they are only social constructs anyway.

Hmmm. I've been thrown by the wish not to have a penis. But the child could simply be reflecting other people's impressions, couldn't he. He likes to dance in an Elsa dress and people don't think boys do that ... HE does it, so decides he must be a girl?

In that case, it would be a horrid indictment of social pressures to 'fit' gender.

Sorry, I'm thinking on screen and coming back to my original position Grin

OP posts:
Original poster
Garrick · 31/08/2015 00:35

Sorry, title should have said 'wrong sex'. I'm sure you knew that!

No, they don't look identical.

Well, he's four now - and, yes, you've summarised it, Paint. He doesn't appear to have been pressured at all. His mum says he just preferred playing with his sister's old toys than his brother's (so far so normal) but there's a lot more than that. In a lot of ways, she is stereotyping girly behaviour ... but have a look at the article. The child is camp!

OP posts:
Paintpot22 · 31/08/2015 00:32

What the fuck is a girly thing?

The parents are deciding what a girly thing is....at 2 he knows that a willy only belongs to a boy and as he thinks he's a girl he wants it to fall off and to have a vagina instead? At TWO?

MrsLeighHalfpenny · 31/08/2015 00:30

Are they identical twins?

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