So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

It is impossible to avoid societal gender stereotyping. You couldn't leave the house, watch tv, speak to anybody else, read a book. Gender stereotypes are everywhere.

Anyway ladies it's been a good debate (which I've enjoyed) and I know we all have our own views. My phone battery is low so I will have to drop out for now. Peace and love x

On the genitals issue - what makes a woman? A vagina? What makes a man? A penis? It's easy to make the assumption that because a certain anatomical development has taken place downstairs, it matches 100% what is happening in someone's head. Brain transplants not currently available.
Did you know that 1 in 3 transsexuals will at some point consider suicide because of this miss-match? Drastic step for someone who might be going through a phase.

I guess it's about being accepted and treated as the person you are. Clothes are merely flags. In crude terms someone who looks male and dresses as male will be accepted as a man - someone who looks and dresses female will (unless someone knows they are trans) will be treated as female. I don't believe for a moment that anyone truly treats interactions with the different genders 100% the same . It's why the genders are different.
We've heard from a poster above who's trans friend goes around in trainers and khaki shorts - hardly a girl girl. The evidence suggests people in this situation merely want to be accepted , and not defined as a group who are either deluded, confused or ill.

As discussed elsewhere, that's absolutely not the case with Bruce Reiner - horrific things were done to him and his brother under the guise of therapy, and I don't think you can draw any sensible conclusions from the outcome.

There was a study mentioned further up (or perhaps on another thread) with 16 boys, 14 of which were raised as girls, then in adulthood, 5 identified as women, 3 were indeterminate, and the other 8 identified as men - that would suggest that absolutely you can be socialised as a woman despite male genetics, and be happy there. I would assume that the children/now adults know their genetic history, and that could provide motivation for the ones who now identify as men (it must be a very difficult decision to make for your child, and I imagine their upbringings will be far from typical because of that)

Thing is, she has imposed stereotypical gender roles on them from before birth- she thought her pink days were over when she found she was expecting twin boys, she is adhering to the idea of "boys" clothes and "boys" toys.

I don't think there's any way to tell if the boy is truly transgender, or likes clothes and toys which are outside the traditional "boy" spectrum.

Does he simply think- girls do x, y and z, I want to do that. Boys don't, therefore I must be a girl?

OK Coco - but you said further up that it isn't about genitals either - this is where everyone has a problem getting their brains about it.

If it's not about clothes, if it's not about your genitals, if it's not about behaviour, then what is it about, and how can you tell?

OK. Let's assume that everyone starts as a completely blank page and that none of us know what male or female is. Or the behaviours associated with each gender.

Let's also for arguments sake assume that this blank page of a child has an anatomy which matches up with how they are raised.

If societal condition is real, then this is the perfect scenario, right? You could raise the child as you wish, with no conflict between what's between their legs and what's between their ears, and every one would be happy.
There would not be a single anatomical i ndictator during childhood that they are different.
A boy raised as a boy would be a boy. And vice versa for a girl.
Perfect conditionals to test the societal conditioning theory.

Unfortunately it's not, as this famous case shows. Bruce Reiner was born male but with deformed genitals. As a baby his parents decided to have his penis turned into a vagina, and under medical supervision over a number of years, he was raised as a girl. Yet he rebelled from the offset. He was a boy and knew it - because his brain told him so.
Bruce''s tragic case seems to point to the fact gender cannot be learned or instilled.
Look the case up on Google.

My point (as I suspect you very well know) is that 3-and-under year olds do not really have a clue as to certainty, whatever the subject matter. They also should not have any clue as to gender (not sex) and why it matters in society - exactly what about gender is necessary for a 3 year old. How on earth does it make a difference if they dress up as a dinosaur or a princes (and how would one so young inherently know one was 'supposed' to be for girls and one for boys).

I do not bieve that my 3 year old knows anything g at all about 'being a boy'. He knows he is one (biologically), and knows the anatomical difference beeeen him and his sisters. He knows nothing about what is 'expected' of him as a boy, because, so far, nothing has been. He is who he is. And so if he expressed a deep thoughts such as his genitals not matching his (societal-pressured) gender, I would be astonished. And wonder where he had got such a thought from.

Here''s what the eorld renowned UCLA School of Medicine has to say on the matter following their study:
"Transsexual participants needed to self-identify as a MTF transsexual, report no history of hormonal treatment, and declare their intention to undergo estrogen replacement therapy. Their ages ranged between 23 and 72. The researchers processed the brain images and examined the regional thickness of the cerebral cortex, comparing the measurements of the 24 MTF transsexuals with those of 24 age-matched control males.

They found the MTF transsexuals, as compared to the control participants, had thicker cortices (outer layers of their cerebellums), both within regions of the left hemisphere and right hemisphere. "Regional gray matter characteristics in MTF transsexuals are more similar to the pattern found in men (i.e., in subjects sharing biological sex) than in women," the authors wrote. "However, we also noticed that brain characteristics in MTF transsexuals and in control men were not fully identical."

The thicker areas within the left hemisphere of MTF transsexuals included the frontal and orbito-frontal cortex (involved in decision-making), central sulcus, perisylvian regions (helps to process language), and paracentral gyrus; and within the right hemisphere included pre-/post-central gyrus (involved in sense of touch), parietal cortex (integrates sensory information), temporal cortex (involved with visual information), precuneus (concerned with reflections upon self and aspects of consciousness), fusiform, lingual, and orbito-frontal gyrus.

"The current study provides evidence that brain anatomy is associated with gender identity, where measures in MTF transsexuals appear to be shifted away from gender-congruent men," wrote the authors.

I'm afraid you are picking and choosing your rules of context by defining transsexualism with clothes. That's more to do with transvestism - completely different.
Having a whim about liking a particular food or toy is also completely different i guess from experiencing a constant feeling your brain gender doesn't match the bits of anatomy that grew lower down.

I don't think the comparison with the animal kingdom works.

For certain species the male will play a protective, food supplier role, leader of the pack role. For others the male plays no part other than insemination; others mix and share off-spring nurturing roles. None of them have to distinguish between wearing a pink dress or blue trousers.

The mother seems to have some curious thoughts on gender identity/sexual orientation I didn't put dresses on my son and he never asked to wear dresses although we had clothes of every colour. However no way would that awful sweatshirt have been allowed.

Had the mother started an AIBU abouther son wearing a dress very few replies would have said she was wrong. It doesn't mean he is transgender.

Chunky - exactly. Most 3 year olds are hot and cold about everything. Last week all Ds would eat (seemingly) was bananas. This week he hates them. His favourite animal is an elephant, expect when it's a penguin. His is going to be an astronaut when he grows up (wearing a pink spacesuit apparently!), but only when he has finished being a zookeeper. Why would I take anything he says about being a boy/girl as gospel, when he has no clue about certainty in any other area?

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150213112317.htm For the poster who requested more up to date research.

I don't think there's a lot that can be sensibly deduced from adult brains on this - it has been proven that the brain changes according to what you do - like this cabbie experiment: www.wired.com/2011/12/london-taxi-driver-memory/

But even the authors of that experiment say that it only tells us that brains change, not why, or if it can happen to anyone.

I saw some gender research on monkeys on the BBC once - they'd declared that saucepans were feminine toys and trucks were male ones and made conclusions on the monkey's gender behaviour based on that - which is obviously crazy, because why would a monkey know what a pan or a truck was even (and that's before the implied suggestion that women must therefore be naturally more suited to frying things!)

Pandas My 3 year old has to put eye shadow on every morning when I do. He also told me he wants to wear my dresses. I make no assumptions about his gender or sexuality. He's a 3 year old boy who loves his Mummy.

Pandas - that reminds me - DS2 is nearly 2, and he declares that every colour is 'PINK'... except when shown something pink, when he proudly tells me that that is 'ORANGE'

little ones are already all over the place - their heads are little bingo machines with random thoughts popping up all over, how on earth any one can say anything with certainty is beyond me.

This all boils down to whether you believe gender is innate or learned. I'm most definitely on the side of innate.
Nature shows across all species that the different genders act / react in different ways. As I presume a lion or a monkey hasn't actually sat down and thought about gender roles, I'm presuming they are going on hard wired instinct.
To the poster who suggested that having a penis etc makes someone a man I suggest you are jumping to very simplified conclusions. Where is the root of gender ie where does it live? In the genitals and physiology? Or the brain?
The majority of research in this area says there are differences between male and female brains, and it's only the more radical feminist lobby who deny this. Why I'm not sure.
The most anyone could say is that the jury is out - have your personal belief by all means, but this isn't as categorical and clear cut as some are so eager to preach.

I have a 3 year old boy who loves all things sparkly, princesses, glittery and 'girly'. He also adores his big sister (which is where some of it comes from - copying her and wanting the same - although a fair amount is just a preference for bright colours and pretty things).

He can wear what he likes as far as I am concerned, and play with what he likes. We have a houseful of all sorts of toys (he is the youngest of 5) and he can pick and choose, as can his older siblings. This doesn't make him a girl, despite him saying things like 'I'm a girl like dd2' when dressed up in one of her old dresses and associated bling. Or 'I'm a princess like rapunzel' when he manages to get his hands in dd2's covered princess hair accessories. He recently spent a very long time in a shoe shop deliberating between shoes - his dilemma was between Frozen sparkly flashing shoes, Cinderella sparkly flashing shoes, or just glittery silver/lilac/pale blue shoes. (He chose the Frozen ones - flashing won out). The assistant in the shoe shop clearly thought we were bonkers and making some sort of statement. We weren't. Ds is just allowed to choose whatever he wants as there is no such thing as 'girls' colours or 'girls' toys/interests, imo.

While being absolutely fine and happy with whatever he chooses, I know he is going to have a tough time when he starts school, and the whole world (seemingly) tells him that he is liking the 'wrong' thing for boys.

The bit in the article that had me raising my eyebrows was when it said that 'by the time he was 18 months old' the mum realised it was serious. Right. So a baby has a preference for a certain colour (or perhaps type of toy which in that house came in 'girls' colours due to older siblings preferences) and becomes attached to it, and by the time said baby is 18 months old, the mum is worrying that this preference is set in stone. What a lot of bollocks. And clearly her reactions have shaped what is happening because, despite being apparently ok with it all, she was worried about choices her 18 month old was making, fgs.

Coco said

the latest science shows that the brains of transsexual people are much closer in areas of development to the gender they identify with

Which isn't exactly the same as a black and white - there is a female brain and a male brain.

I am well aware of the research Coco. Thanks. Still don't think there is any evidence for a male/female brain. As Flora stated.