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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

587 replies

Garrick · 31/08/2015 00:28

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong Confused

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 02/09/2015 20:44

^So going back to the chairs and tables again, yes they exist, we can all feel and use them. But who gets to sit in the best seats? And why those people? Who has to make do with the seats at the back, where they can't hear or see so well? Who has been excluded from the room entirely and what stories are told to explain and justify all these arrangements. And, for that matter, why chairs and tables, why a room?

From this perspective, if you use the science method to try and understand this reality, you'll end up measuring things like the volume of the lecturer's voice at the back versus the front of the room^

I'm not sure I agree with this analogy 100%, although the point you are making is excellent.

I would tend to think of this as a "hard" science and "softer" science issue.
Science is just applying a scientific method to a question.

Some questions are pretty simple, what happens when I mix sodium and chlorine - I get sodium chloride.

You can run that experiment a thousand times you always get the same result. There's no variables and it's a very simple system.

But then you have a social science like economics where the variables are massive. Billions of people, various governments, political systems etc.
So it's very hard to predict what the outcome will be in various scenarios. Eg you apply quantatative easing expecting it will achieve X but actually it achieves Y.

So while I agree that measuring people's hearing is not appropriate I still think you can apply the scientific method to social situations. It's just much harder to do the more complex the system is.

YonicScrewdriver · 02/09/2015 18:43

"It was just an example of a man feeling uncomfortable being a sahd because of gender stereotypes. "

Hooray, we agree!

I don't think anyone is advocating rejecting science!

dementedDementor · 02/09/2015 18:37

I would argue mostly no (but I am a bit biased - I like science). It certainly was exceptionally male dominated but I don't think that is a reason to reject it.

I like science too(!) and did not mean we should reject it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 02/09/2015 17:41

Sorry yonic I'm obviously not being clear enough. The sahd dad thing is clear not gender identity, I didnt mean it to sound like it was.

It was just an example of a man feeling uncomfortable being a sahd because of gender stereotypes.
Like you said nothing to do with gender identity.

I've got a tonne of stuff to be getting on with at home. Back later.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 02/09/2015 17:27

Could you say that science is viewed as the most powerful sort of knowledge because it has traditionally been performed by men (particularly white men in more recent times)

I would argue mostly no (but I am a bit biased - I like science). It certainly was exceptionally male dominated but I don't think that is a reason to reject it.

At its essence the scientific method is

  • Ask a Question
  • Do Background Research
  • Construct a Hypothesis
  • Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
  • Analyse Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
  • Communicate Your Results
  • Are the results confirmed when others repeat the experiment.

That is why I personally value the scientific method as it requires evidence that your theory is true.

Unlike for example Freud's made up nonesence of the Oedipus theory. That's just done bloke thinking really hard about something and setting out his theory.
There's no proof it's true. I can't prove its not true but that's not being able to disprove it does make its true.

I did really like your explanation Buffy, as always you've given me loads to think about (and I'll be back later). hope everything is ok Buffy

YonicScrewdriver · 02/09/2015 17:20

Thank you Buffy and Holly.

When, in your example of the SAHD, he is "defending" his masculinity because he feels it is lessened by the SAHDery, because patriarchy. In himself, I doubt he thinks his gender has changed to be some % woman, some % man but he is obviously concerned that might be the perception as he's performing a "feminine" role viewed as lesser, because patriarchy.

Again, that doesn't seem like gender identity.

jennyorangeberry · 02/09/2015 12:39

Holly, thanks for explaining that. That was what I was trying to get at.

I'm not saying that any word has to have a meaning based on Science or the physical world to be objective. I mean in the sense you described, that words have meanings that are shared, so the meaning of a word is not subjective.

BertieBotts · 02/09/2015 12:03

BTW - did anybody notice Glosswitch's blog is blog of the day? >>>

BertieBotts · 02/09/2015 12:03

I love mumsnet. Fantastic posts this morning (and yesterday but those two do stand out as having had a lot of effort put in :) Flowers)

jennyorangeberry · 02/09/2015 11:46

Whenshewas, you've given various examples of humans who are in the group 'conscious and aware that they have a female body.' I don't think there's any confusion that all the people you mention usually fit in that group.

But you haven't explained what the category woman as a gender identity is.

And I'm not asking you to explain simply, objectively, in biological or other scientific terms, in psycho analytic terms, or in any other specific terms. I'm just asking you to be explicit.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/09/2015 11:13

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Garrick · 02/09/2015 10:50

You're a great teacher, Buffy :) Thank you, too, shove.

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dementedDementor · 02/09/2015 10:30

Bringing it back to gender, there are theories that reality and knowledge has been interpreted using structures and ideas devised by men, that justify men as the ones who get to structure and interpret reality, to benefit themselves

Could you say that science is viewed as the most powerful sort of knowledge because it has traditionally been performed by men (particularly white men in more recent times)?

0dfod · 02/09/2015 10:15

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Garrick · 02/09/2015 09:45

Womb and NiNo - I was diagnosed in my mid-thirties, 25 years ago! There was very little research on it and I was part of a pilot study. I didn't know about inositol and, since the syndrome doesn't go away with surgery or age, am about to buy some. Thanks!

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Deianira · 02/09/2015 09:15

I think we are talking at cross purposes, when I say gender identity in not talking about gender stereotypes.

The problem with this distinction is that, to massively oversimplify, a gender-critical feminist would argue that there is no such thing as gender without gender stereotypes. That is to say - if gender is a socially constructed thing which people perform/do/are thought to be doing, then it's impossible to also separate out some sort of idea of innate gender identity and talk about that - all this would mean is that this is the set of social assumptions or ideas which you've been consciously (and unconsciously) choosing to match up with in order to 'do' a particular gender.

(Again, I stress that this is a huge oversimplification - I certainly don't want to suggest that when people do/perform gender it's a conscious choice to act in a particular way, but for now this seems to be the most sensible way to work out where the cross-purposes are coming in!)

This is why people are asking how it is possible to 'feel like a woman' (what you are calling 'gender identity'), without recourse to such stereotypes, unless it means to recognise one's biological sex. Because if gender is entirely about social expectations, particular conventions etc., if you took those away (and they had never existed) then you wouldn't have a 'feeling' which decided which set of expectations you matched up to (or, indeed, more importantly, nor would society/individuals in society be judging you against those expectations, when you chose to accept/reject them as you went about your life), so it would become a meaningless concept.

I hope that's at least mostly clear! Thanks also to Buffy and shovetheholly for your two posts - they are both very helpful!

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 02/09/2015 09:03

Thanks, Buffy. I might need to read it again in my lunch break, but yes it does make sense.

shovetheholly · 02/09/2015 08:56

high fives Buffy

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/09/2015 08:53

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/09/2015 08:52

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shovetheholly · 02/09/2015 08:26

jenny said "I disagree that what pain means is subjective. What pain is, what we mean when we tell each other that we are experiencing pain, when we set out to inflict pain, what that means has an explicit meaning that is not subjective. We all mean the same thing. It is universal. Describing the level of pain you are in is subjective, but what the word pain means is not."

I think this raises an interesting issue, and I think it is based around a common confusion between the word 'subjective' and the concept of something as socially or culturally constructed. I am not sure where this confusion comes from but it is very, very common. I have heard it repeated by academics all over the place.

If we go back to the seventeenth century and to Descartes, we can see the foundations of what has become a very modern theory of mind. It's based on a central doubt: what if my sensory perceptions aren't accurate? What if they don't 'reflect' a world out there around me, but are in fact illusory? We all have dreams - sometimes when we are ill or have taken drugs, we hallucinate things that aren't there. Who's to say that this isn't happening all the time? How do we KNOW that what we perceive as reality is 'really' there?

Descartes thought about this and said 'Aha! But there is one thing I cannot doubt - and that is that I am sitting here and thinking! I have absolute certainty about that!' (Cogito ergo sum). And a theory of mind was born which pictured the mind as something inner and the world as something outer, and then worried about how we connect the two to have certainty in our knowledge. Note that the idea of a perceiving 'subject' is changed by this: 'subjective' here is the way that the mind turns in on itself, and cannot be certain of things empirically 'out there'.

Now if you have this Cartesian (Descartesean) view, pain is something that we know 'internally' - it is, by nature, a private experience. We know it, apparently, by identifying it within ourselves and isolating it. ('Oh, this sensation in my finger, let me call that pain' and then when I have a pain in my foot 'Oh, let me check back in my memory bank - yes, this feels like pain too'). We build a kind of 'pain sample' to which we refer ourselves, and we point to it internally, we refer to it when we are talking about feelings of hurt. The problem is: how do I know that my pain sample is the same as your pain sample? How do we know that we are 'really' experiencing the same thing?

Now I'm going to skip forward through 200 years of pretty important history in which these ideas are challenged in various ways to the mid C20. Along comes Ludwig Wittgenstein. And he says 'What a load of bollocks, Descartes!'. And he enters into a long demolition of this position, of which I am only giving you a faint-hearted summary here (I seriously, seriously recommend reading it for yourself - it is in the Philosophical Investigations, which is a beautiful and wonderful book of thinking that is utterly, utterly therapeutic to read). Anyway, Wittgenstein starts by looking at the way we act around pain and he disagrees with Descartes. At no point, he says, when we are in agony do we say 'Excuse me for a second while I check my current sensation against my mental database to see whether I can call this 'pain' or not'. The mere fact of using the word 'pain' slots us into a shared experience of pain.

In other words, pain behaviour and language is conventional, and a matter of use, and use is public and not private. We don't have private languages: the very concept of meaning is something social. In understanding pain, we insert ourselves into a set of social and cultural conventions about pain: it is not simply a private matter. Think about the word 'Ouch!'. It's a pretty weird word, right? There is no reason why we should say 'ouch' when we burn a finger, rather than 'oimoi' or 'aiiiieeeeee'? Yet we use it in place of crying of screaming when we are in pain. For Wittgenstein, the crucial thing is that we DO talk about pain and pain behaviour in this social way, without there being an issue about checking my pain against yours - not only do we not need to look within for verification, but we are already talking about the same thing. There is no 'essence' or 'internal definition' of pain - it is something that is already part of the world. (This is part of a bigger and more brilliant attack on the book between the mind/world dualism that Descartes set up).

The post-structuralists would take this position further, arguing that all of our understanding happens in socio-cultural frameworks that are very much 'within' society and that are always therefore political. This does NOT mean that they are 'subjective' in the sense that Descartes uses the word, to mean a kind of solipsism. In fact they are 'objective' in the sense of being outside of the subject, in the culture. But they are not 'objective' in the way that word has come to describe some kind of scientific truth that is supposed to be transcendentally and universally true - they are culturally specific and relative.

So what does this mean for gender? Well, we can see it in a Wittgensteinean kind of a way, as something that is inevitably social - or we can go further and see it in a post-structuralist way as something that is inevitably social and political. Either way, the idea that it can be described as either simply 'subjective' or simply 'objective' needs to be exchanged for a more sophisticated series of concepts!

NiNoKuni · 02/09/2015 07:52

How can you have a gender identity without recourse to gender stereotypes or biology?

I know I'm a woman because I'm an adult human female. Breasts, vagina, ovaries, uterus, got the lot. It doesn't, for me, go much beyond that. Like most people, I have a mix of traditionally masculine and feminine traits, abilities and interests. So biology aside since we're talking trans, where does 'woman' or gender identity come from? What does it mean?

People were asking me when I was going back to work before I even had the baby! It doesn't half make you defensive on occasion.

FloraFox · 02/09/2015 07:52

The research in Nature does not indicate that a person with a penis is ever a female. The obvious conclusions are:

  1. There is a wider range of intersex conditions than previously known; or
  1. Factors which we previously thought were indicators of sex, are not reliable indicators.

The fact that a woman was pregnant when she discovered she was pregnant, suggest she is not intersex. She has demonstrated that she produces eggs and has borne a child. In a sexually dimorphic species, that is the distinction between male and female.

The research does not change this fact:

Penis = male or intersex =/= female

Vagina = female or intersex =/= male

On the point of the Olympics, i would be interested to know whether they were ever asked to test if a competitor in the male categories was a woman. I doubt the committee was asked to test Bruce Jenner in 1976. I don't the the Olypics tests indicate that we don't know what a woman is.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 02/09/2015 07:36

Yes a lot of people have gender conflict because society expects certain things from women and men.

One man I know is quite conflicted at the moment because he is a sahd (made redundant).
He takes great pains to explain why it makes sense to stay at home and how he plans to get to work, everything I speak to him it gets brought up, this doesn't tend to happen with the sahms I know.

I think we are talking at cross purposes, when I say gender identity in not talking about gender stereotypes.

NiNoKuni · 02/09/2015 07:27

Womb I second inositol, and so does my 11 week old son Smile

When - I don't have no gender conflict. I have no sex conflict. It's that good old 'cis' problem again. I defiantly reject all gender expectations and identities that society wants to enforce upon me as a female. Feminists (NAFALT) do have gender conflict, because gender is oppressive. As for defining what a woman is - I thinnk Flora has it nailed down. How do you personally know you're a woman?