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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

587 replies

Garrick · 31/08/2015 00:28

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong Confused

OP posts:
Garrick · 03/09/2015 20:14

Demented, I completely got your post. Hope things sort themselves out soon Flowers

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Garrick · 03/09/2015 20:12

Heh Grin Playbuzz says: You are a Pangender! It's not that you don't identify with being a male or a female, you actually identify with both... maybe even more so than the average person. You like to challenge the idea of the usual gender roles, and you definitely fit the mold of non-conformity in this realm of labels and their associated identities. The word "Pan" itself actually means "every", making you all inclusive in the method in which you express your gender identity through behavior and physical attributes. Why do you have to be one or the other? You don't- and that's what your happy with!

Playbuzz isn't far wrong Wink

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dementedDementor · 03/09/2015 20:09

I am very familiar with BDD and can empathise with the idea of someone suffering sex dysphoria but I can't begin to understand gender dysphoria because I don't understand gender identity at all. I also don't understand why someone may have dysphoria about their nose, for example, but they aren't encouraged to have a nose job and become their 'true self'.

I've only seen wooly definitions of 'gender identity'. The most I can gather is it is an internal feeling and it is not related to stereotypes - though at the same time the need to dress and act a certain way (and play with certain toys in the case of children) comes up a lot. I suppose you could say that we don't have the language to describe it, but then if we are going to change laws and the meaning of 'woman' on the basis of it, I feel like we really should have a clear definition.

I can imagine that men may feel more connected to a gender identity because being masculine is seen as a much more important part of being a man, whereas you don't have to be feminine to be accepted as a woman. So I see this as more of a social thing then a biological one.

Sorry I don't know if anything I said makes sense. Having family dramas at the moment and my mind is elsewhere and I've had no sleep.. Sorry if you've read this and feel like you've lost 2 minutes of your life.

Garrick · 03/09/2015 20:05

There is a social definition of what depression is. You can't self report that you have depression if you think depression is a blue bicycle stored in a shed. You have to be self reporting symptoms from the agreed current definition.

Yes -- and, the thing is, no-one has yet defined 'wrong sex/gender' as, say, depression and schizophrenia are defined & revised.

Let's time-hop to a few years hence, when there is a suitable questionnaire developed by trans people and the relevant experts. To benchmark the criteria for special treatment, medical and legal, this questionnaire would have to be tested on the population at large.

And this where I suspect we might have a problem.

I'm one of the many women who doesn't recognise a gender identity in myself. In fact, I bridle at the very concept of gender and the ways it restrains people based on their reproductive equipment. I am quite sure that huge numbers of (cis) women & men lack a gender identity.

So, passing over questions about whether I preferred tea sets or tractors as a child (neither, and had both) and feel more myself in a dress or trousers (neither, but mostly wear trousers), we might get on to more searching issues such as whether I'm happy with my sex & gender. Well, not really; "used to it" would sum that up. Have I ever wished I were the other or another sex? Yep, often! Have I ever resented my genitals & reproductive equipment? Hell, yeah! They're often messy and cause pain. How did I feel during puberty? Scared, angry and confused; doesn't everyone?

This is a strangely rambling post, to be sure, but perhaps my imaginary diagnostic test will help to show how you can't evaluate a human condition from a single perspective. Also, that pretty well all such evaluations must, by their very nature, be pinned on social constructs.

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WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 03/09/2015 19:52

Google I did the first one Grin

Thing is all of these quizzes are silly and it feels a bit like making light out of what is a very serious big deal for lots of people. I guess the other option is that it's a "thing" at the moment and so lots of people are trying to understand what it's all about and where they fit in and that's OK.

Most of these (not exactly rigorous!) things seem to hinge on gender stereotype though. Which I guess is why it comes up. I do think that some people think there is a certain amount of disingenuity (sp) going on when people say they don't know what it means or feels like, but it's not, really. What may be an obvious and clear sense of something in one person's mind may not be present at all in another's - I mean that's perfectly reasonable isn't it.

I do know that I don't feel at odds with my body, but I don't feel particularly connected to it, either. It's just a housing for "me" and I don't "feel" a particular sex I just feel like a person.

Of course many many women and girls are deeply uncomfortable in their bodies, so there's that as well.

YonicScrewdriver · 03/09/2015 19:50

"we'd still need a word to describe the group previously known as female, in order to talk about the particular situations they face which are entirely linked to their biology. The taleban don't give a fuck what the gender id in your brain is, they only give a fuck what's in your pants, and we need ways to discuss that."

Yup. This is so much more than a "which toilets?" issue.

jennyorangeberry · 03/09/2015 19:45

In the alternate reality where we all do a pop quiz on gender and declare what our identity is, we don't actually know there is such a thing as gender identity equality.

We have no idea how many people are each gender, so we can't possibly know at this point if any of the gender identities are treated worse than any of the other gender identities.

We know females are treated worse than males in general, because we've been recording and studying inequality between the sexes for ages.

jennyorangeberry · 03/09/2015 19:40

Is there a link Whirlpool?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 03/09/2015 19:35

I am agender, apparently.

Makes a change from being male Grin

And yes, pop quizzes are shit, but, you know, I have literally no idea what it means and it's interesting to see what others think it means.

That particular quiz was quite interesting with a few off the wall questions, it mainly focussed on mode of dress though.

I suppose at least if there were some proper definitions, I could take the quiz, and so could everybody else, and stacks of women would need to tick the "other" box for their hospital equalities information, and we'd still need a word to describe the group previously known as female, in order to talk about the particular situations they face which are entirely linked to their biology. The taleban don't give a fuck what the gender id in your brain is, they only give a fuck what's in your pants, and we need ways to discuss that.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 03/09/2015 19:26

Google time!

"Your gender is the foundation of your personality and indicates how you choose to express yourself. Which Identity do you actually represent?"

BertieBotts · 03/09/2015 19:25

Depression is fairly common, though, isn't it, and treating it doesn't affect others therefore it's fairly accepted that if somebody's asking for help with depression, they probably have depression and it's worth treating them. Most likely the only reason anti-depressants aren't available over the counter is the potential for suicide, the (theoretical, not so much there in practice with the NHS) need to monitor patients' overall wellbeing and the option of exploring other options e.g. talking therapies in stead of or addition to medication.

So I don't think it's really comparable. Also not quite the same but I think closer - talking about neurological issues like ADHD and ASD. We don't have a blood test or a brain scan (I've been doing a lot of research around ADHD recently so I'll stick with that as an example) - if you take hundreds of brain scans of ADHD patients and control patients and compare them, there is a clear difference between the two groups, but it's not visible on an individual level because there is far too much overlap. So the brain scan is not (currently) any use in diagnosis.

Likewise, there are self reported symptoms but in the process of diagnosis, they don't just go by you saying oh yes, I'm really scatty and I can't watch a whole film in one go. They will also ask to speak to others who are close to you, in order to build up a fuller picture. They will take examples e.g. from school reports, or a pattern of job dismissals, etc.

If you are diagnosed and you want to try medication, then the dose is carefully monitored. You are monitored after beginning it in order to see how it is affecting your life and whether it needs to be changed, up, down, or to a different kind of medication.

Of course there are many people who also do not believe ADHD exists and I am sure they could argue that the diagnostic criteria is woolly and subjective. However, medication and therapy does seem to help a lot of patients.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 03/09/2015 19:22

What happens if it turns out that large numbers of people - or large numbers of women - don't have an internal gender identity. On whatever basis it is eventually decided it is measured or described.

I am at a loss with much of this as I don't have any idea what it is supposed to mean. And I know lots of others on here are in the same boat.

jennyorangeberry · 03/09/2015 19:14

A gender identity isn't the same thing as being diagnosed with sex dysphoria.

Having a gender identity is not a medical condition. Having sex dysphoria is a medical condition which requires diagnosis.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 03/09/2015 19:03

yonic

I have a sneaking suspicion its quite an in depth process.
Definitely harder to get hormones for sexual dysforia than to get antidepressants.

jennyorangeberry · 03/09/2015 18:16

Yes, as Yonic says. There is a social definition of what depression is. You can't self report that you have depression if you think depression is a blue bicycle stored in a shed. You have to be self reporting symptoms from the agreed current definition.

YonicScrewdriver · 03/09/2015 18:11

Is there a similar questionnaire for gender identity? What questions does it ask? What score means matched/mismatched/neutral?

The PND checking one that health visitors used to ask had 16-20 questions IIRc.

YonicScrewdriver · 03/09/2015 18:09

When, but those symptoms are codified. The patient gets a questionnaire and rates their feelings in answer to various questions. "Do you look forward to things more/less/the same as before" eyc.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 03/09/2015 18:07

Hi slug - I'm just glad this is on the Internet, that way no one can see the dictionary I keep referring to Grin

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 03/09/2015 17:55

You can't do any scientific study on gender identity unless somebody decides what defines the different gender identities

Well that's kind of the problem with stuff that goes on in the brain.

If are diagnosing someone with depression you don't do it by a blood test. You rely on the patients own self reported symptoms.

slugseatlettuce · 03/09/2015 17:36

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slugseatlettuce · 03/09/2015 17:36

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 03/09/2015 17:34

Again great post holly

I'll stick with schizophrenia as it is pretty clear that both biological factors have an influence.

From the NHS
^Evidence the disorder is partly inherited comes from studies of twins. Identical twins share the same genes. In identical twins, if one twin develops schizophrenia, the other twin has a one in two chance of developing it too. This is true even if they are raised separately.
In non-identical twins, who have different genetic make-ups, when one twin develops schizophrenia, the other only has a one in seven chance of developing the condition.
While this is higher than in the general population (where the chance is about 1 in a 100), it suggests genes are not the only factor influencing the development of schizophrenia^

I do agree that it is useful to view the biological and the social as factors that are not entirely separate but that interact and affect each other. (Eg taking drugs incresses the risk - now obviously whether or not you take drugs is a social thing (maybe there's a small part of biology too but I personally think the social factors are most important regarding drug taking)).

jennyorangeberry · 03/09/2015 17:05

There being such a thing as schizophrenia is socially created. Who has schizophrenia, what the definition and diagnosis of schizophrenia is have a particular meaning right now, which no doubt will be different in the future.

That means we can do all kind of studies, both scientific and other, on the causes of schizophrenia, because somebody has defined schizophrenia and stated who has it and who does not.

You can't do any scientific study on gender identity unless somebody decides what defines the different gender identities.

If somebody asks me to be participate in a schizophrenia study, I can meaningfully state that I do not have schizophrenia.

If asked to participate in a neurological study on gender identity, Neither I nor the vast majority of other people can meaningfully state what our gender identities are, because nobody will give a definition of the different gender identities.

There have been scientific studies done on femininity and masculinity but to do that, psychologists had to define what the characteristics of those two concepts were.

shovetheholly · 03/09/2015 15:34

I don't think it's that those studies aren't incredibly revealing, useful pieces of research into pathologies whoknows. It's more that they form a part of a picture, and that they are subject to the same caveat of 'this is the best we know right now, and is inevitably as limited by current assumptions about the world and universe as any other piece of knowledge is right now'.

Let's run with your example of schizophrenia - this is not my area, so I'm deeply out of my comfort zone. I'm also thinking aloud here, so what I say is to be treated with a huge handful of salt!

Firstly, a point from within the current scientific way of thinking. Scientifically, we "know" (subject to above caveats) that a number of genes play a role in schizophrenia. Howeer, genetics as far as I understand it (which isn't that far - I have a biology degree but that's not exactly specialist) is moving away from the old "one gene, one protein, one function" hypothesis towards a much more complicated view of biochemical interactions, in which the difference between terms like 'environment' and 'genes' are no longer that clear. If a synaptic receptor in the brain of a small person (sensitive period unknown) is in a biochemical environment that includes lead, then that person is more like to get schizophrenia later on. But that lead is in the 'environment' of the gene at every level from the molecular right up to the fact that the foetus/baby is being brought up in inadequate housing where lead pipes haven't been replaced, which in turn is 'caused' by ideologically-laden ideas of the inequality of housing and prospect that we accept (scandalously, in my view) in our society. So the presence of the lead is biochemical, but it's also social and political. Similarly, the exposure to stress in young adulthood that can increase the risk of schizophrenia is simultaneously biochemical and social in nature: we find something stressful because of social and cultural factors. So at a biochemical level, even within our current scientific paradigm, our bodies are shaped by the social and economic, which seems to challenge any easy opposition between nature and nurture.

Secondly, a point that relativizes science. Nowadays, we describe this in terms of biochemical interactions, but formerly, in the nineteenth century, it would probably have been seen as a pattern of heredity, and in the eighteenth century as a condition of oversensitive nerves or overstrained sensibility (in the middle class, at least - though there were some nods towards inherited madness too). Three very different paradigms for disease - and they are not isolated from the surrounding culture but very much grow up out of the wider politics of the time. There's a relationship between eighteenth century philosophy about perception, the nervous openness of the body to the world, colonialism and broadening trade links; nineteenth century ideas of race, madness, disease and eugenics, heredity and imperialism abroad, with the rise of spatial control and surveillance at home; twentieth century ideas about biopolitics and the inevitability of neoliberalism (believe it or not, there is a huge literature on this, with which I am almost entirely unfamiliar Grin). My point is that in no case is the scientific paradigm outside of the political (understood in this broad sense), because the very limits of what we are able to think are defined by the ideological.

I guess what I'm saying is that science, as a practice, can't escape its own historicity.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 03/09/2015 14:08

nino
Aren't you asking the eternal nature/nurture question there When

Yes I guess so. I'm not the only one interested though.
There's lots of areas where what happens to someone is down to a mix of their biology and their environment.

Eg your biggest risk factor for developing schizophrenia is having an identical twin with schizophrenia. But it's not a guarantee that you will - just it's more likely.

That seems to suggest a mix of biological and environmental factors. Both of which should be looked into.