So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

I think being gay is more acceptable to society than being a lesbian. I don't think anyone would say Sam Smith or Will Young were experimenting or doing it for attention, whereas I've seen it written online about Miley Cyrus and that model with the weird surname... Cara Develinge (sp).

Although dp tells me that no (or just one or two) male footballers are openly gay. Which I think is sad as a fair proportion of them must be. I don't know about other sports.

I thought Rita Ora went out with Calvin Harris. I get most of my celeb gossip from dp though so I may be wrong!

I have just read this whole thread from start to finish, and it has been a fascinating read.

Buffy you are on top form, and I must say you explain concepts very well. I can picture you writing books: "Epistemiology Made Simple".

I find a lot of trans threads seem to go round in circles. This one has been a bit different.

I thought lots of pop stars now are queer. Which usually seems to mean they might have short relationships or flirtations with someone of the same sex, but the person they actually settle down with is opposite sex. There are very few out pop stars who only have opposite sex partners.

I like the way these things always have a picture of david bowie on them

David bowie, as far as I'm aware (and no I don't know him ) never thought he was a woman. He was (and is) a man who wanted to dress how he wanted to dress and that's that. Chucking the gender stereotypes out the window. We have gone miles backwards since then, it seems.

The 70s and much of the 80s it was so exciting with people being freer to present themselves however they fancied, boys with big hair and frills in makeup, girls with very short hair and big boots. What happened?

It also occurred to me while listening to selected 80s tracks on the way to work that loads of the artists were fairly openly or totally openly gay. Mainstream popular acts like Erasure, Pet Shop Boys, Bronski Beat... Does that still happen? I have no idea I'm not down with the kids

I mean I'm not saying it was all marvellous and in some respects things have moved forwards but in others they seem to have regressed horribly. Things do seem to be opening up again now in terms of hair, fashion and stuff, when I walk around, things are getting louder and women are getting shorn and boys are having longer hair and stuff, so I have hope we are going into a (hopefully long!) period where anything goes a bit more again.

Sure, I'll see you down the pitch in 10- I'll be the one running away from the ball while screaming.

Game of keepy uppy, Dementor?

Cookies cleared and I'm still a man! It's me and you against the world, yonic.

Cis male too.
Well, huh.

I didn't say I dress like a man or anything

I've done it 3 times now to make sure I checked the correct box and I've got cismale each time. Funny as I didn't think my answers were particularly masculine.

I've got an image in my head of demented checking herself in case she has the worlds tiniest penis somewhere about her person.

i really hope no one is bothered by my stupid sense of humour. That quiz is obviously daft

Apart from demented, Garrick! cismale indeed lol

I don't like the cis thing as it means that my internal gender identity aligns with my biological sex. So it means that other people are telling me that my internal gender id is female. I don't understand what it feels like to have an internal gender id let alone a female one. All I know is gender roles and stereotypes and female = shoes and chocolate and so, you know, piss off. Not that there's anything wrong with those things but my whole life people have been trying to put me in a box marked "feminine" and I really really don't like it because I don't fit very well. Well, externally I fit well, but my personality, my likes and interests and so on, they don't.

This is one of the main points of feminism isn't it? Don't tell women what they can and can't do, what they should and shouldn't like, don't put us in a box and tell us we're emotional and then pay us less money or say we aren't allowed to work at all or whatever. Same goes for men their gender roles are very narrow too.

Obviously people like me have a huge problem with all of this.

And feminists need to be able to talk about women and girls in a meaningful way.

I think the language around these discussions is becoming unnecessarily complicated.
I wonder if people don't take some of the discussions seriously because they sound quite pseudoscience-y in places. Out of a bad self help book.
Without beig facetious I am still not sure what identifying as female means; nor a cis-woman. I understand what in principle the words mean but it is confusing with all the jargon.

I got cismale even though I said I was anatomically female.

That might well explain why you aren't offended by it, mightn't it!

I was going to say...

Maybe it will turn out that feminists / radfems turn out to be much less likely to have an internal gender id than the rest of the population. I mean, the discrepancy between how I felt inside (me) and how others treated me based on my external appearance (female & with accoutrements considered to be very "feminine") is why I became a feminist in the first place, before I even found out what the word was and said "yep that's me" when I was about 15.

Certainly there are more than one group here who are utterly failing to communicate in a useful way, and taking it very badly. Many women on here feel that their entire identity is under attack - if your sex is your gender and your gender is how you feel inside then most of us are not female. Which, given that most of us are feminists and many of us are because of the way we've been treated because we're female.... Well you can see where the problems arise.

We are being told, actually you are not women. We are. And it's a massive headfuck and I'm not sure that it gets us anywhere useful.

I got ciswoman - it's quite funny really. I'm possibly the only person left on this thread who isn't offended by the cis thing.