So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

Why is it such a big deal they wear skirts?

Presumably you would be delighted if they all wore trousers?

When I first started work hardly any women,certainly in the professional staff, wore trousers. In the 90s tailored trouser suits were everywhere. In recent years I've noticed the number of women in my office who wear trousers is decreasing, many never do. Many of the younger women rarely, if ever do.

The only dress code is "smart" for client facing. Maybe it just is changing fashion that means they are wearing skirts and jackets, or more often , dresses. So what if it is?

Why is there this constant need to police (and belittle - because they can't possibly have made their own minds up) girls and women who prefer feminine clothes?

Sorry deleted and repeated and got distracted so have written a lot of that twice.

That I've noticed anyway

Do you really look at that and think, every single girl here has such a firm preference for skirts that they never ever choose to wear trousers to school, and they have each come to this choice completely freely, and it's a total coincidence that every single child bar one has the exact same preference to the point that they never choose the other thing. That is obviously what is happening and I can't see why anyone would think otherwise.

I mean, really? I'm a bit, I don't understand that. Lots of adult women choose to wear trousers, always or often or sometimes. It's not like they are universally known to be horrible. If it were a choice between a traditional shirt and a polo shirt then yes sure. But this, really? You honestly believe it is extremely unlikely to be anything to do with peer pressure, or fashion, or what their parents buy for them, and totally completely likely to be a coincidence.

I'm a bit, um, I don't know about that. Is it supposed to seem like a reasonable point that lots of people will go "well yeah obviously it's to do with free individual comfort preferences why would anyone think otherwise"?

Because every single girl in the whole school wears skirts bar one, lass.

My DDs are at primary school and although they can wear trousers every single girl (bar one) wears skirts, long hair is absolutely prized, it does all seem that the pressure to conform is around quite a definite version of femininity

Why do you assume this is due to a pressure to conform as opposed to a simple preference? I hate trousers.
I always have. I find them very uncomfortable. The only time I have worn them was for a very brief period in my late teens. Yet at the same time I grew up in a household sufficiently peculiar and nonconformist to have a mother who did not, in the 50s and 60's take either of her 2 husbands' names or use their names for her children and a grandfather who actively supported her decision.

I got cismale too. Definitely checked the "have a female body" box.

As for the boxes - the logical conclusion is that we're going to need seven billion (and counting) gender identities so as not to exclude or misgender anyone. And they will presumably need to be accommodated by putting seven billion separate loos in each public building. Could prove a little tricky.

Bob Todd is something Glen in The Thick of It says, yes meaning odd. I watch that programme a bit too much.

the identity crap not he identity crap!

BriarRainbowshimmer ha ha that quiz is ludicrous, one question is good, I thin the answer was this quiz is a waste of time. It even predicts' ones genitals based on the quiz! Apparently I am male or intersex! I am female.
Yes that quiz is about submission, bullying (WTF!).

The trouble with so much of he identity crap is it is about you in relation to other people. If other people disappeared would not you still remain!

There are no such things as "girly things". There are only "things".

And unless these twins were raised by wolves on a desert island, then they are as subject to societal pressure as everyone else.

So no, this case doesn't prove that you can be born the wrong sex.

A mate of Pete Tong, I think.

My DDs are at primary school and although they can wear trousers every single girl (bar one) wears skirts, long hair is absolutely prized, it does all seem that the pressure to conform is around quite a definite version of femininity.

I mean they still tronk around on the monkey bars and run around and stuff but the appearance thing seems very narrow at the moment in terms of what is acceptable / desirable.

Who or what is bob todd

I agree about the boxes, Whirlpool.

I remember when I was at primary school in the 90s we were really encouraged to celebrate individuality; everyone is unique and has their own special gift and that kind of thing. Does that not happen anymore?

I know teenagers particularly have always formed subcultures and been obsessed with fitting in but it seems to have all gone a bit Bob Todd.

I mean people always tried to put me in boxes and I didn't like it.

That's why I became a feminist - or kind of just was really, no-one told me about it, the first time someone said this is what it is I thought well that's sensible I'm one of those. As a teen my feminism came from people trying to put me in boxes, and at 15 or so I understood that feminism meant trying to get rid of the boxes so that everyone could live without constraint, to dress and act and be how they felt comfortable with. And be treated equitably as well, the other things that made me think feminism was the correct thing for me was an absolute visceral anger about being harassed on the street (I hated it more than many of my peers, I mean none of them liked it, but I got SO ANGRY and had no way of expressing that anger) and reading about things being done to women and girls elsewhere in the world and I guess having an understanding of a bit of history that things had been shit and were gradually improving but there's a way to go.

Anyway. A lot of it was to do with the boxes. I wanted, and still want, to get rid of them. This new thing, these new terms, all it's saying is "look there's some more boxes! now you have 6 or 8 or 10 to choose from instead of the 2 or 4 we had before!" but this is no big revolution in individual freedom is it, it's still constraining, the boxes still exist, and the thing is, no matter how many you make, there are still going to be some people who don't fit and so life for them will still be difficult and shit.

Ebear do you feel a strong feminine connection to your feminine side?

Is brilliant there are so many men!

There is one interesting thing though. The two people (at least lass I think you are one, the other is a definite) who have no problem with "cis" both come out on the (bollocks) quiz as cis, which might ggo a long way to explaining why they don't have a problem with the label. Because it fits them.

All of the women who have a problem with the label, well maybe that is because it doesn't fit. And not just in a theoretical "I reject gender" way but in a personal "that label feels all wrong" way.

And yet all women who aren't trans are automatically labelled cis. How do the people using this know all the women who aren't trans, are cis, unless they ask each and every one personally?

And the answer I think is that all of these discussions are about individuals, individual identities - a trans person feeling how they feel, a bi gender person feeling how they feel - and the terminology and the (actual) changes to the meanings of words have not been considered in the light of what happens when they are applied to large swathes of people.

For instance, the words "woman" and "girl" become unusable unless you go and ask every individual in the group what the identify as, and then you will get a load of them not being girls even though they are at risk of been married at 10 or whatever it is that you were trying to get to grips with in the first place. Because, again, the people who want to marry girls off at 10, they don't care about this, they only care about what's in your knickers.

Another man here, according to online tests
I thought this quiz was disturbing:
unboxifyme.com/wild-quiz-whats-your-gender-identity/
It bases your gender on aggression and submission, on being the bully or the bullied. Which is close to radical feminist analysis of gender as a tool of oppression but it doesn't question it at all.

I'm a two-spirit apparently!

You are considered to be the 3rd Gender: a Two-Spirit! The term Two-Spirit was originally coined by the Zuni Tribe, stating that an individual who has masculine and feminine characteristics (external and internal), is a person of the third gender. You like to present yourself as a combination of the two identities, creating an alternate one that allows you to express yourself as the best of both worlds. You don't need to choose between male and female and you certainly don't need to lack any attributes of the two genders; instead of you utilize both traits of each identity and display them in the way you believe the world should see you and how you feel most comfortable with yourself.

Sorry, but doesn't this apply to everyone?! It's cos I chose Frank N Furter, isn't it?

Well apparently I am a stunning looking blonde with a lot of leaves around her head.

Bertie, surely you're not suggesting that an internet quiz with about 10 questions is a complete load of bollocks?

Or perhaps it's telling us we are all hairy handed truckers after all

I got cismale too. Badly designed quiz maybe?

Some of them I gave up on as there were questions where none of the answers applied. Playbuzz says I'm a cisgender female which isn't surprising.

I'm transfeminine apparently.

You are Transfeminine! Assigned a male sexual identity at birth, you now identify as a female at the core. Like a Transmasculine, you may not always conform 100% as a female or continue to do so all the time, but you do prefer to represent yourself physically and behaviorally as a female due to the internal connection you feel to your feminine side. In relation to other genders, you're just being yourself; and a person has to be able to express their gender identity through the way they see fit. For you this may be through fashion trends, interests and a more feminine thought process. Regardless, no one can or should tell you the "right" way to be a female!

I'm pretty sure I was never assigned a male sexual identity at birth, but if the internet is telling me so, I must be wrong...