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Original poster

Can we please talk about "Gender" - I seem to find myself in a muddle thinking about it

86 replies

LovelyFriend · 27/08/2015 12:21

I'm still not perfectly clear on the differing feminist ideas/theories/positions on gender. I've read many threads on here about it and they are enlightening and I have learnt a lot but my mind but still struggles to understand some concepts.

My own feelings veer towards gender being a spectrum - society wants each sex to conform/identify in particular gendered ways. I see that being a woman/man as a very broad spectrum that includes all the ways a biological born woman or man may live and be. I guess by extension then I would view a Transwoman as a biological man and part of the spectrum of "maleness" and a Transman part of the spectrum of "femaleness". (I totally accept any trans persons right to be called by the name/pro noun of their choosing).

Perhaps it is biological physicality I view as a spectrum, rather than gender?

Apologies for my clumsy descriptions!

So I was looking at a RadFem website about an upcoming event that seemed quite interesting.

The event website states:
It is a central part of radical feminist analysis that gender is a tool of women's oppression, not women's liberation. None of the organisers consider ourselves to have an innate gender - neither masculine, feminine, trans, cis, gender queer, or any other gender. We are gender abolitionists who have been raised and socialized as girls and women because of our female bodies* in the context of patriarchy.
Women who view gender differently, as a benign spectrum of self expression rather than a human created power hierarchy, will find other events where they can organise with like minded people. RadFems Resist is designed by and for women interested in radical feminism and those who want to genuinely engage with second wave theory and women's liberationist ideas.

I'd like to understand this statement better - what are gender abolitionists? How does that manifest in daily life? What is "second wave theory"?

Am I one of the "Women who view gender differently, as a benign spectrum of self expression rather than a human created power hierarchy" who they don't want to attend the event? I can't figure it out.

Can anyone provide any insight or recommend any reading on this? It is something I'd really like to be confident discussing (outside of this forum).

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 28/08/2015 12:21

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Original poster
LovelyFriend · 28/08/2015 11:58

I came across this Feminist Dictionary

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 28/08/2015 11:15

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Original poster
LovelyFriend · 28/08/2015 11:00

Buffy thank you - everything you say makes complete sense to me.

I don't think I could hold a fluent discourse about it like you can (yet) but I would like to get there - but that is part of the learning process isn't it? I feeling of both understanding and confusion.

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Original poster
LovelyFriend · 28/08/2015 10:56

Kryten toe dip, splash around even, by all means.

NiNoKuni thanks for the Rebecca Reilly-Cooper link. Amazing article which was very helpful and pretty much in line with what is in my head - though expressing everything verbally is still a struggle for me. I'll admit I was very relieved when at the end she talked about how complex gender issues are! It's not just me then. I will go back to it over the weekend and read more of her links.

Question - are the words "woman/women" and I guess "man/men" now considered to be gendered?

If we talk about females we are taking of a biological/born group. If we accept that transgendered people can identify as gendered women but still be biologically defined males, and part of the male class where does that leave the word "woman". What happens to the term women's movement? Do we not use that anymore? Is the "women's movement" a place where born females and gendered women who are biologically male share?

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 28/08/2015 10:53

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 28/08/2015 10:46

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velourvoyageur · 28/08/2015 09:54

sorry, I mean it's an example of what contributes to the construct that these abolitionists want to get rid of

velourvoyageur · 28/08/2015 09:52

I think we're heading towards a culture of "post-gay", and I'm very happy with that. If someone asks me about my sexuality, I usually just say that I like individual people and don't focus on gender. So maybe we'll be "post-gender" one day too. I certainly don't have any concrete ideas about what makes me a woman except I've been brought up as one.

totally agree with your last para Kryten (in fact the whole post!)

Think what Kryten talks about is an example of what these abolitionists would like to see gone.

Gender is actions, perhaps, and decisions, but not a predetermined quality.

Kryten2X4B523P · 28/08/2015 09:22

Is this a toe dipping thread? I hope nobody minds if I dump the contents of my brain here, this has been going round my head for a few days and the recent threads are a bit fast moving for me.

I knew gender stereotypes existed, but I didn't really realise how gender socialisation works until I had my second child, who is a boy. He looks virtually identical to how his sister looked at that age, apart from the different genitals.

But people treat them differently. And are very quick to 'assign' gendered characteristics for them. Both my children, at around 12 months of age, showed an interest in toy cars. They have wheels that spin, you can push them and make them move, they're bright colours, what's not to like when you're that age? But they were the reasons people said that my daughter liked cars. My son liked them because he's a boy. He currently likes pushing toys around in my daughters pram. He likes the pram because it has wheels, so it's a bit like a car. My daughter likes it because she is a girl.

It just seems a load of crap to me and it pisses me off. My current train of thought is that gender isn't something we have, it's something that other people force upon you based on your biological sex.

NiNoKuni · 27/08/2015 13:47

As I understand it, the RadFem analysis of gender is that it is a patriarchal method for reinforcing gender stereotypes (masculinity and femininity) and, by extension, women. Sex is not gender, it's biology. It's very important not to mix those up. The underlying premise is that there are few if any real differences between men and women that are not biological/physical. What differences there are are generally thought to be the result of social conditioning (TV, media, social norms etc.). Gender critical feminists are, er, critical of this patriarchal control method and gender abolitionists wish to abolish it. That would mean people would be free to express themselves however they like regardless of their sex. So bearded men could wear make up, for example, if they wanted to and still be regarded as men.

So if you view gender as a restrictive method for controlling people, putting and keeping them in neat little boxes, then that's a RadFem perspective. If you see gender as merely self-expression with no limits, restrictions or privileges, that ain't.

You could try Rebecca Reilly-Cooper as a primer Smile

And Second wave feminism is here.