Can we please talk about "Gender" - I seem to find myself in a muddle thinking about it

David Reiner was male. He had male hormones and a male body. Raising him as a girl didn't erase those facts

Exactly, David was a boy. He had his testes removed when he was a toddler and was raised as a girl. But obviously he was a boy and still very much identified as a male.

Money very much expected David's case to prove his theory that gender is purely down to socialisation. It failed hideously. It doesn't prove gender is 100% innate but is does seem to suggest that gender is down to more that just socialisation.

David Reiner was male. He had male hormones and a male body. Raising him as a girl didn't erase those facts. The Reiner experiment doesn't prove that gender is innate, it proves that physical sex and hormonal makeup is relevant to how we experience the world and develop our identifies. That's not a groundbreaking discovery.

bertie I did say it was a famous case, obviously it's on Wiki. It's an exceptionally well known case. Sorry for not putting everything about it down.
What John Money did to David and his twin brother (raised as a boy) was twisted and despicable. I think the twin raised as a boy went on to develop schizophrenia, no idea how much Money contributed to his mental health but I'm sure it didn't help.

The reason it gets "trotted out" is that Money developed the theory that gender was purely down to socialisation. He knew his experiment with David did not support his theory but he falsified data and passed it off as successful, this had an impact on medical practice.

David Reimer made his case public to try and expose Money's work and prevent any similar reassingment in the future. He case is in the public eye because he wanted it to be there.

I'm no doctor but...could gender dysphoria be linked to hormones - ie low testosterone in males and low oestrogen in females? And if so could hormonal treatment be possibly indicated but not cross-sex hormones? Just thinking of the woman who felt trans until she went on the pill and started to feel more ok with being female.
I wonder whether any research has been done into levels of sex hormones in people who identify as trans?

David reimer was also forced to simulate sex acts with his twin brother as part of his "gender reassignment surgery" and was never given proper female genetalia, he reportedly urinated through a hole in his abdomen. It is hardly surprising that he wanted to go back to being male and I do wish that gender theory proponents would stop wheeling the poor man out as an example of somebody being forced into the "wrong" gender roles when it is quite clear that he had significant other issues and experiences to contend with. It's not even hard to find this information, I looked him up on Wikipedia.

It might be worth talking to your dds doctors about the actual evidence behind gender reassignment. They probably do think it is in her best interests.

In the past there was a view that (with the right hormones and socialisation). An infant born as a male/female could be reassigned successfully. Gender was not fixed it was something you learned.

A lot of this come from the now discredited work of John Money. The David Reimer case is famous (penis burnt off in botched circumcision at 8 months old, parents advised by Money to raise him as a girl (I think he was a toddler) - anyway it was a massive failure David never adjusted to being a girl and when he found out the truth he wanted to be male).

This and other cases has lead to a view that feeling female or feeling male is not just about your body. It is also about how your brain is set in the womb.

I personally think that there will be some individuals who would do better or be happier after surgery.
That said teenagers are famously agst ridden and are often unhappy with their bodies.

So how a Dr can tell if a teenager would genuinely benefit from transitioning or if it would be a mistake is a seriously difficult judgement call.

flora yonic bertie buffy lucio
Feel better for the first time in a year. I knew I couldn't be the only one who thinks the way I do but just didn't know where to look. I will support her no matter what but this thread has certainly helped clarify my thoughts.
Thanks for starting it lovely friend

Have PM-ed you, YeahWell (story is not mine to tell, so didn't want to put it on an open thread).

Wish I could post more but on shitty connection. to yeahwell.

Yeahwell, I'm so sorry you and DD are going through this

yeahwell I'm sorry you've had such a hard time. As women, we worry about the effects of hormonal contraception and later HRT with all the health concerns and worries about strokes. We know the dangers of men taking testosterone as steroids to build muscle and are exposed to heart issues etc. Yet doctors are willing to expose children (and adults) to a lifetime of dependence on artificial hormones that drive a person's body to develop artificially. This is combined with surgery to remove healthy organs and render the person infertile. It's horrifying and in the future this will surely be recognised as the child abuse it is.

There is no evidence yet that there is a biological cause but even if there is, surely this is not the right treatment? Surely it would be better to help people feel at ease with themselves as they are, which would start with doing away with notions that boys like X therefore if I like X I must be a boy.

Good luck and there are plenty of people on here and out there who are not buying into this dangerous development.

Thank you so much flora
Fantastic. I should have posted here a long time ago. Wonderful mumsnet. I feel like crying. It's been such a terrifying year fighting 3 docs who are pushing me to go for hormone treatment for her. But surely it's my job as her mum to keep her options open. I mean it was just such a sudden thing that there was no hint of in her childhood. She used to dress up as Madeleine, then Matilda, then Violet from lemony snicket. There was never a hint of this before she got a girlfriend. And it's very very interventionist treatment. I did ring Dr Paul mchugh at john Hopkins hospital in Maryland and he stopped the GRS programme there which was the longest running in USA. He said he stopped it because it doesn't cure gender dysphoria. He was dealing with lots of older transgender people who were really suffering and high suicide and depression rates. He maintains its just plastic surgery for a psychological issue. I asked the doc we saw here who referred her for hormone treatment is he thought she it was psychological or biological and he said biological. I asked what was the biological marker for a transgender person ie how is it measured. He said he maintains it's biological but he can't prove it it's just a feeling he has. fucking wooly thinking if you ask me I think he is a wanker who should be struck off
Jesus sorry for the hijack

I agree yeahwell that it's deeply conservative. It's not surprising the Motmon church is coming out in favour of it nor that it is prevalent in Iran (possibly the only country with more women transitioning than men).

This might be useful:

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/transgender-handbook-for-concerned.html?m=1

Her gf presents as a v conforming regular girl and is very sweet. She refers to DD as he and him and also maintains she is straight. They actually tease each other "omg that's so gay" and have heard them talk about other people calling them 'fags'. Wtf? They ARE gay. But the gf comes from a very straight family who can't tolerate homosexuality apparently and are v against gay marriage etc. So this girl brings my Dd home as her boyfriend. Except everyone knows she is a girl although she now looks like a 12 year old boy (uses binders). The mother of the gf is not happy and I can understand how weird she finds it because it is weird. I have a pretty good relationship with Dd but after she spends a lot of time online (on forums?) she hates me, and has spat in my face and physically attacked me for not getting her the treatment she needs
I have been paying for her to see a psychotherapist once a week £50/hr. This woman is herself gay and specialises in sexuality/gender issues. However she also refers to do as 'he'. I just feel that I would like her to have room to back out of the position she is in or move around a bit. But the transgender community is very harsh to people who de transition.
Does anyone else think that the prevalence of transgenderism is an indication of how conservative our world is. Also it is a clear win for the patriarchy to encourage nonconforming girls that they need fixing by male shrinks, surgeons and endocrinologists
What about the gender benders I grew up with like David Bowie or Annie Lennox? Are there any role models like this now? Is Miley Cyrus talking about gender or have I imagined that?

yeahwell I think you are right to try and stall her started treatment.

I'm sure there are teenagers who do genuinely feel they should be male when they actually have a female body and gender reassignment is (eventually) the right thing for them.

But I'm equally sure there are many many more teenagers who are simply unhappy (miserable) in their own skin and think a sex change is the answer when it isn't actually right for them.

I always thought someone had to live for years in as the sex they wanted to change to before starting therapy - but obviously this is not the case.
I hope your daughter starts feeling comfortable in her own skin soon.

Thanks very much for the sympathy. It's very much appreciated. On the lgbt kids threads it's all about supporting parents who support surgical/chemical transition which I don't at least not yet.
And that's mainly because I agree with what many PPs have articulated so well.
I don't know what it means to say you have a male or female brain. If you are biologically male/female then your brain is the corresponding sex imho. Anything after that eg I am good at maths/Map reading/fancy girls/good at football is not because you have a male brain it just means you like things that are culturally construed as male. But as a feminist I object to an understanding of any of the characteristics as biologically male. Bollox to that. Also bollox to Caitlin Jenner saying she knows she is a woman because she has always wanted to wear sexy ladies undies and have her hair and makeup done. Fuck right off. That doesn't equal female. I have no interest in hair do's and nail varnish and have never worn sexy lingerie. I am however a woman. I know this as I have had two children come out of my womb and I menstruate and have breasts and a vagina. I also have a science degree and am good at DIY.
Oh my poor little girl. She is just gay (has a lovely girlfriend) but has internalised anti lesbianism. In her world being transgender and presenting as a straight boy is far more acceptable than presenting as a non conforming female. (Every other girl in her class has long hair, fake tanned legs, loads of makeup etc - massive pressure on them to conform to increasingly narrow acceptable presentation of female).
Sorry for the rant!

yeahwell this sounds so difficult. Can't imagine how hard it is to deal with your child transitioning.

Your dd sounds like she was raised the same way I was. No gender disphoria here.
I'm sure it's nothing you did or didn't do.

Much love yeahwell

No problem YeahWell. I struggled to find it when I looked for you last night and had to find them on twitter for the direct link.

If you're on twitter, they are called 4thwavenow. They have a tumbler (or tumblr?) too but I don't really understand what that is!

I agree with NiNoKuni about that 'honour her femininity' comment being a load of bulltosh.

And sorry, but 'honour her femininity by buying more pink'? Wow. That takes the award for most ridiculous thing I've heard today.

YeahWellMaybe for you. As the (very) ex partner of someone who transitioned, I know damn well there is not much support around for the family and loved ones of prospective transitioners. And it's hard. Everyone just expects you to accept and cope without question, lest you be deemed a bigot. I don't have any words of wisdom and I can't imagine what it's like when it's your child going through this, but have some hand-holding from me.

perpendiculous thank you so much
What an amazing find. And why haven't I been able to find this before? I would consider myself an excellent researcher. Alternative viewpoints are constantly shit down and hidden