Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Children sexually assaulting other children in previous years at our new kindergarten.

35 replies

MilchandCookies · 18/08/2015 13:38

My DD (3) started kindergarten last week. So far she loves it and has had no real issues. She is in a mixed age group, so children from 3 to 6. (We're in Germany.)

Yesterday a friend told me that when her eldest DD (now 8) was there, there was a seemingly ongoing problem of the older ones taking the younger ones off out of sight and assaulting them. I'm not sure I should say what was done in case it's triggering. She told me this in a very matter-of-fact way, and sort of shrugged when I asked what the kindergarten did about it. The DC crowded us at that point and I didn't have a chance to ask more about it.

I feel like I need to raise this with DD's kindergarten teacher. I want to find out how often the children are left unsupervised (if ever -- I certainly hadn't got the impression they were). I also want to know what safeguards are in place so that this type of thing can't happen again.

What else should I be asking about? I am absolutely horrified that it happened and terrified for my DD, but I don't want to completely overreact.

Before she started, I had had a conversation with DD about no games with no clothes on, and that she could tell her teacher or me about any children making her unhappy or uncomfortable. I honestly thought that was an overreaction on my part, and I was worried I was going to unnecessarily worry her, so I have tried to play it very cool.

Is there anything else I can do in the immediate term to protect her (and DS when he starts in 18 months)? What about longer term? I hope it's ok I've posted this here. The advice and views of the posters here always seems far more balanced and sensible than on the other boards ...

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Original poster
MilchandCookies · 19/08/2015 19:45

That's very helpful, pretend. Thank you. I will work on some more questions tonight.

OP posts:
pretend · 19/08/2015 19:31

Well at the very least I would want to know:

What is regarded as a concern? What should staff be reporting?
Who do they report it to?
What is then done with the information?
How is privacy protected where necessary?
what measures are put in place to ensure safety? (I've heard about 3 year olds in kindy wandering out into the street and trying to walk home)
How are concerns monitored?
How are children monitored?

For a start.....

Original poster
MilchandCookies · 19/08/2015 19:25

Ok, I'm going to have to google what should be in a child protection policy ...

OP posts:
pretend · 19/08/2015 18:59

Unfortunately I'm not surprised that this occurred in a kindy in Germany.

The child protection there is woeful. I've heard awful stories and it seems to be totally accepted and everyone just shrugs and says "what can you do"?

It's part of the reason I wouldn't out my child in the German system when we were there. I knew at least one school didn't have any child protection policy at all.

Original poster
MilchandCookies · 19/08/2015 18:53

PS Thanks for the Pants rule, TheyGot. I've just read through it properly and it builds on some of the concepts we already put into practice with our DC. No means no, their bodies belong to them, etc. I like the way it's set out and its mnemonic.

OP posts:
Original poster
MilchandCookies · 19/08/2015 18:49

I missed the derail. Thanks for getting rid.

Yes, Bertie, that's spot on: the German attitude towards kids is generally far more relaxed than I think is normal in the UK. (I can't say for certain as I've been here for years.)

I have problems with how relaxed some people are with their children, but find myself outnumbered frequently, so I end up thinking I am overreacting. I have my own history of being sexually assaulted and a lack of trust in my own judgement to contend with as well, which doesn't help.

The six-year-olds all buddy up with the littler ones for lots of activities -- teeth cleaning, putting on coats/shoes/rain gear, holding hands going for walks. I was delighted on our taster day, as DD was paired up with a girl from our village that we knew, and she had such a brilliant time being helped by a "big girl". Now I am (unreasonably) panicking that this is not so good, even though I take on board the comments about how rare these incidents must be.

Repressing panic attack at thought of DD taking bus to school alone age six

I have an appointment with the head tomorrow afternoon. When I asked for the appt, she already knew what it was about (I assume the teacher told her), and reassured me there was nothing to worry about. She seemed quite warm and genuine, so I hope it's a positive meeting.

OP posts:
WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/08/2015 16:39

Oh he's GAWN

I reported him I expect others did too. Poor old MNHQ have got a lot on their plates at the moment.

I think it was burke.

FenellaFellorick · 19/08/2015 16:30

I agree, whirlpool. Disturbing. Even someone with the strongest agenda you would think would have a bit of decency and know when it's not appropriate.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/08/2015 16:22

Oh, on the supervision thing, I definitely wouldn't expect a 6yo to be closely supervised all the time and not a 3yo either TBH. A vague eye yes but I would expect them to be playing with the other children without someone breathing down their neck IYSWIM. Just sensible I guess? DD is 6 and going into year 2 they definitely have been having time where the supervision is not close in the playground etc and I'm fine with that.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/08/2015 16:20

You've got to wonder about an adult using a story about serious child sex abuse to make some kind of point (I assume) about how all feminists think men are evil and should be put in prison if they talk to women.

Oh hold on, is it that poster the other day who got banned on a thread about street harassment? If he can't see the different between penetrating a 3yo and 2 children sitting next to each other then that sounds about right.

FenellaFellorick · 19/08/2015 16:10

oh give over, Q, that's utterly ridiculous.

Booboostwo · 19/08/2015 15:58

Apologies, I fell for that!

uglyswan · 19/08/2015 15:20

Boobostwo - judging from his frenetic and garbled posting on the FWR this afternoon, Í doubt Q is trying to add to the discussion in any productive way. Have reported him.

Booboostwo · 19/08/2015 15:18

That is utter bollocks Qthirties. Three year olds do not have capacity to understand giving or withdrawing consent, their hugs do not have sexual intentions and hugging is a million miles from penetrating another child anally/vaginally with a foreign object!

Qthirties · 19/08/2015 14:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Booboostwo · 19/08/2015 14:31

Being partly unsupervised is one issue - I know nothing about German nurseries but if this is the case with all of them maybe you need to find some therefrom of childcare or adopt the mor relaxed German attitude.

Being seriously sexually assaulted while being unsupervised is an entirely different problem. I'd expect this to have been a one-off, a horrific one- off but nonetheless a very rare exception.

DeandraReynolds · 19/08/2015 14:25

Children of 3-6 in this country would sometimes be unsupervised at school/nursery too - in the toilets, in playhouses etc. When there is one adult per 13, 15, 30 children they are not going to be within sight at all times, it just isn't possible.

This sounds like a very serious but very unusual incident, but it happened 5 years ago OP. It isn't something I would feel anxious about now.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2015 14:04

We have never had any incidents of this nature (that I know of) but for example, DS had several incidents which were not witnessed by teachers.

One time when he was five he had three boys corner him and try to prick him with a drawing pin they had found, which really frightened him.

He was bitten by his friend leaving a mark and a bruise.

There was an incident in the playground where he wanted to climb up onto a high piece of equipment and in climbing up he pulled another child to get himself grip, other child panicked because he was being pulled down and kicked out which hit DS in the throat. I saw this as I was picking him up but the teachers only saw the last part and went to tell off the other child, they were surprised when I pointed out that DS could have pulled this other child to the ground and seriously injured him - accidentally, but still!

When he first started he complained to me that other kids put sand down his shirt and in his pants/trousers. When I mentioned this to the teacher she shrugged and said they are one as bad as another and they all do it.

All of these except the sand one were taken seriously but they weren't noticed at the time. And DS was only there for two years rather than the normal four.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2015 13:59

I have a child at a German kindergarten and I can totally believe that this could happen because the supervision is lax. It's just normal there - they give children freedom and generally don't worry too much.

It could have been that there was a cycle where one child was affected by something that had happened to them and acted it out on other child(ren) who then acted the same thing out on other children. But without knowing numbers it's uncertain - it could have been a relatively small group of children, for example.

As others have said if the main child and other affected children are no longer there then it's unlikely to happen again. But you are right to ask for reassurance and how they can tell you that it won't happen. IME the idea of supervising children every minute of the time they are in kindergarten is pretty alien to German people. They will supervise 95% of the time, but not 100%, it's just the culture. Some of the older kids in DS' one were walking themselves home by the end of the last term. And it's common to put 6yos in charge of 3yos, not entirely, but mostly.

VerityWaves · 19/08/2015 13:49

That is very serious abuse certainly not a case of " bullying " as someone put it. Hmm
Surely she went to the police ?
How awful.

Booboostwo · 19/08/2015 13:44

I am astounded your friend didn't go to the police and social services. I would be worried about what these children are up to now, both in terms of the harm they pose to others and the danger they may be in themselves from being abused.

Having said that, this is such an unusual, aberrant event that the chances of your DD coming across children who will behave similarly must be close to zero.

Coconutty · 19/08/2015 06:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
MilchandCookies · 19/08/2015 06:06

My use of the word "ongoing" has been misleading, I apologise.

I meant that at the time, more than one child was subjected to these "games" and it happened several times before it was reported and stopped.

I didn't mean that children were still doing it now, as far as I know.

I spoke to DD's kindergarten teacher yesterday to ask her whether they were ever left alone to play. Her immediate response was no, and that even when she went to the loo, she asked one of the helpers to watch the children.

Then I asked about a playroom opposite the main entrance. It's got lots of big squishy building block things, like from soft play, and I remember seeing children coming out of there unsupervised when we visited last year. The teacher admitted that later on in the term (not now when so many kids are new), up to five children are allowed in there alone. I've preliminarily said that I don't want DD in there unsupervised full stop, but I'm prepared to revisit that topic next year.

In the group's room there is a sort of gallery up a wooden staircase. The children are also allowed up there to play in small numbers unsupervised. However, there is a big convex mirror in the corner that means the teacher can see what everyone is doing. I don't know if the mirror was there when the incidents took place five (?) years ago, but I think that's where they happened.

I'm going to make an appointment to speak to the manager. I have to know what really happened, and what has been done to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Whirlpool, I don't think my friend did go to the police. I'm seeing her tomorrow again (without DC), so I will ask her more then.

Thanks for the links, uglyswan. Terrifying stuff, but reassuring to know that at least some places are making an effort to stamp down on this.

I also really appreciate the supportive replies. Thank you, everyone.

OP posts:
Booboostwo · 18/08/2015 20:03

Do I have this straight: a couple of years ago a number of different six year olds anally and/or vaginally penetrated a number of three year olds with objects while the staff failed to notice? And the nursery is still working? And none of this never made it to the news? How did this number of severely damaged six year olds all happen to go to the same nursery?

If all this did happen it's seriously aberrant behaviour and I'd think the chances of coming across it again are minuscule. I would be seriously worried about the nursery's ability to supervise children inane setting though.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 18/08/2015 19:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.