Feminist Pub XX - may the summer rains wash the patriarchy down the plughole

I don't know The Life Scientific. What is it?

I don't listen to IoT too much these days but remember being impressed at the discussions on all kinds of subject.

Ah, it's specifically the history ones I've been listening to, maybe he finds them easier to follow?! I was listening to one about Sparta which had two women and a man on the panel and the man was a horror, interjecting to correct the women all the time and generally coming off as prissy and superior, whereas the women came off as super intelligent, knowledgeable and passionate. Bragg at one point said to him "well, that's what you're here for", suggesting he very well understands the dynamic? Which in my experience, makes him unusual among men...

Started typing but my post can be condensed into this:

[insert lengthy rant about endemic systemic sexism here]

[scream]

Mine's a double gin and tonic or four, a fistful of illicit B&H and a bag of chips please.

I love In Our Time, and it's one of the main reasons I really resent my 9am Thursday meeting... MB does sometimes talk over people, usually mathematicians & scientists when he's not quite following. The Life Scientific is very good, too, and are committed to having 50% women interviewees.

Urgh, I hate the organising assumption too. And if you refuse or make a point that it's never men doing it, then you're a trouble-maker, or horror of horrors, Not A Team Player. Does not apply to men who refuse to organise stuff, of course, if they were even asked so as to be put in a position to have to refuse at all.

On a brighter note, I was listening to some podcasts over the weekend and I've been catching up on the In Our Time history series, which I can unreservedly recommend if you haven't come across it before. It's a sort of panel discussion on chosen topics, chaired by Melvyn Bragg. What I've found particularly enjoyable is the amount of predominantly or wholly female panels, and it struck me how unusual that is for a start, when a lot of panel shows or shows that need to wheel out experts so often seem to be male dominated. More than that, MB actually listens when women talk, he doesn't talk over or interrupt or cut them off or assume he knows more than them. He seems genuinely interested in listening to and learning from women. Of course, he's a very skilled and experienced broadcaster, and this shows whoever he's talking to, but he just struck me as being unusually good at interviewing women. I don't know much about him as person, so please forgive me if he's known to be a raging MCP in his private life

The contrast was clear when I listened next to the News Quiz which, much as I like it, was, as usual, replete with men talking over women, point-scoring and nicking their jokes.

Funny how those same men are perfectly capable of organising a meticulously planned stag do.

Agreed, it's really not going to change anything without men picking up responsibility. One reason I've stayed in my current place so long (despite no longer really enjoying my current job) is that enough male colleagues "get it" that it's not a constant uphill struggle. Not perfect by any means, but it's nice to be in a management meeting and have a male colleague bring stuff up instead of me. Just having moments where I can think "phew, X has this, I don't need to do it" makes such a huge fucking difference. It only needs to be moments! Really such a tiny bit of effort to become a bit less clueless...

Exactly. I will tell them that since they made the problem they fucking solve it. And if anyone would object that they didn't personally do it I will say that hang on there, are you saying I should represent women but you can't represent men? And they will all fuck off.

I should stop living in my head ...

I have met quite a few women who've stepped back from doing women in STEM stuff (not just tech roles). It's something men don't even have to consider - no one has a go at them if they don't do anything, or complain it's taking too much time, and it's not like it's a men's club here anyway (sure about that?), if they do do something. And while I do think that we do need to be encouraging more people in (not just girls), the problem isn't them so much as the men who've been doing it for decades and don't think they are part of the problem at all, when they are mostly entirely the problem.

I do my bit in challenging sexism and in doing microaffirmation stuff with women colleagues and students but I do object to being window dressing. It is rage-inducing.

NeverEver - am currently trying to gradually disengage myself from various women in tech responsibilities, because they ate up any free time/energy I had for, y'know, geeking around & staying technical myself. I do get a lot of benefit and pleasure out of attending events, but have realised that I need to back away from organising before it eats me alive.

There is only a set amount of Reasonableness in the universe. If Buffy is Reasonable again that means I get to be UnReasonable. Brace yourselves. Mwahahahahaha!

Buffy! You're Reasonable again!

I know what you mean Ms Mermaid. I actually quite liked the Dr. Foster ending for example (although I'm avoiding all threads on it) because I was fully expecting her to be punished in some way. Generally women in these things get 'their comeuppance' or have some kind of balancing evil done to them (eg. woman who has an abortion then can't get pregnant when she wants to, woman who gets a promotion over another person discovers that the job isn't what she expected/other person gets a better job somewhere else - some kind of balancing so the woman can't actually come out on top)

freshwater I'm not sure I'd put that much thought into a collar for a dog, but I regularly think similarly about things for my dds.

My rant of the day is about a book I'm reading which has a sort of side storyline about a sexual assault/attempted rape, where there is a massive amount of discussion about the character of the woman, she's a slut, she "had an affair with a teacher when she was 14", etc. Not a single person has thought that she's a vulnerable young woman who has a history of sexual abuse and deserves some compassion. I know its fiction, but it just feels so unfair for that character. I also think it's leading up to a big reveal that she lied about it in the first place :(

Felt bad about gender expectations on one of my dogs today. I was buying a collar for number 2 female puppy and there wasn't a huge selection - the only ones in the style I liked and the size I needed came in pink or blue. I bought blue because I didn't want her to feel like pink was for girls. She already has a more-typically male name and enjoys mud and slightly mindless violence, should I be worried?

Ever since I shed the Athena Swan thing I have been refusing to do anything to do with representing women in STEM. What do they want me to say? Come into this career - it's great! It only takes 20 years to get promoted! And you'd be just about the only woman around! Fan-fucking-tastic! Come and join us!

If you want a woman to represent women in STEM then go and recruit some. This woman is not doing it. Not until she forgets the hell that was Athena Swan. And she's got a fucking long memory.

(Having said that, I really do do do love my job. This split personality thing is going to be the death of me one day.)

I work in a particularly male-dominated area of IT. Sometimes, I get tempted to grab them in a painful area to get their attention, and shout at them, "you do realise I am the one who is usually pushing people to get into volunteering in STEM events in schools, so we improve the take-up of STEM subjects, particularly with girls? Or are you all just totally ignoring me? I can lecture on this subject and how women are treated in IT at quite some very long length, you know, with lots of quotes and statistics..."

"Hahahaha, you haven't fallen for that old marketing bollocks have you? God, they must have wet themselves when they realised they could con up to 50% of parents into buying it all again, only in pink this time. Oh, mate, seriously, save yourself the money for uni fees."

Never actually heard any colleague come out with anything so dim though, so unlikely to use that line.

I suspect I will make a similar comment if it comes up again.