Feminist Pub XX - may the summer rains wash the patriarchy down the plughole

Somehow, some people don't seem able to grasp the concept that the ultimate goal of being in a relationship might be to be happy, not to one day get married for the sake of marriage.

Which is somewhat strange, considering that we are also fed all this stuff about romance by the media. (I grew up expecting that there'd be a prince on a white horse who would make me happier than I was before. Not, you know, some villain who'd make me totally miserable.)

You're right, we didn't have children. We were engaged and lived together so it is quite a change, but I think that the real problem is that many people didn't realise it was a bad relationship. And lots of the stuff which I'm so glad to be rid of is fairly common (I think) so it's surprising to most people that it bothered me so much.

I do also feel like there's still an expectation (in my social circle at least) that the ultimate goal for women is to get married and have kids. Don't get me wrong, I'd like those things, but only with someone who doesn't constantly put his own needs before mine.

Amelia, you don't even have children? (I assume because you babysit your niece) And they expect you to be devastated by the end of a relationship?

Why? Getting rid of a bad relationship should make you feel better, not worse.

I need a drink please (a large red wine if you're buying). After a recent split (less than two weeks) I'm sick to the back teeth of everyone expecting me to fall apart. It's like it's shocking that a 30yo woman might rather be single that in a bad relationship. Even the bloody delivery man today asked "haven't you got a man to do that for you?" when I was putting together my own sodding furniture today!

On the other hand, I did manage to put together a dining table and chairs, a TVs stand and wardrobe, organise the sky tv, apply for single person discount on council tax, buy a new tv, rearrange the living room and babysit my niece for two hours. I kick ass.

I find it hard to reconcile Justine's comments with the mn forums. Even outside of fwr, mn has really helped me see how much women are disadvantaged by society. It seems like pandering to have written it for the FT "yes women don't earn as much as men and that sucks, but no worries, it's not the fault of businesses, it the fault of society and the choices women make".

I fell off the pub. But mine's a today. It is cold, rainy, and I am so bored with everything so I am going to have a little vent in this safe space.

Normally, I am really quite happy with my lot as a SAHM. I like playing with my children, I like watching them play, I like pottering round the house and my cooking is getting better. DH really values what I do and doesn't shirk round the house when he is home. But today, I am feeling tired, bored, and down.

I haven't had a decent night's sleep since I had DS because he is a rubbish sleeper and won't settle for DH (perils of natural term bfing which, again, normally I don't mind) and now that he is teething (DS not DH ), I only got to sleep in one hour intervals.

DD2 is in nursery in the mornings which used to be all right until I realised this means I can't really go anywhere outside the neighbourhood at all because there are only a few hours between collecting her and collecting DD1 from school.

And I'm envious of DH because he gets to talk to more adults uninterrupted than I do. Of course, he is likewise envious of me because I talk to DC more than he does. He's going to our friend's birthday party tonight and I can't go because of DS not settling for anyone but me. Anyway, this friend was DH's before he met me and I want him to maintain that friendship.

I'm just feeling like I'm not much at the moment. Boring housewife with no interests and no topics of conversation except children. But how can you have interests if you have no time to get absorbed in things because one or the other of your DC interrupts?

Sigh. Anyway, am going to be late to collect DD2. Thanks for the space to vent.

Well done to your DD sausage. I was like that at uni - I could not be doing with boys. I was very impatient at all the juvenile display and behaviour, all the understanding that you do certain things. But nobody bothered me too much - I don't know if I was just "unattractive" or whether the message went across. But I was very happy to be doing my own thing and if I went back I would do the same thing.

DD has found one or two of her friends upset with her as guys wont come sit with them at the Uni bar. After DD turned an "overly friendly" guy into a pretzel when his hands forgot their bounds a lot of guys now avoid DD (which she is happy about she wants to study). The other annoying part is that she keeps getting asked to teach self defence, which she is frustrated about as she has spent 14 years studying martial arts and whilst she could qualify to teach her career plans are far more important to her. Running self defence classes would take up a lot of time that she wants to spend studying or relaxing. Plus she trains once a week so it would be hard for her. She doesn't need guys and she doesn't suffer fools so the pool of guys she would select from is limited.

Women's Equality Party is doing a survey on street harassment if anyone fancies filling it in here.

I was thinking of the Colleen Rooneys, or maybe Ched Evans's partner - infidelity, prostitutes, rape, they stand by their man. It's sad that young women would have so little self esteem. Even when I was young I thought it was incumbent on everyone not to accept wankbadgery, as it means there's one more example of a man getting away with it out there. But I am a bit spaced out on Night Nurse so maybe not making sense!

Oh, it still happens, EElisaveta, no doubt, I just think clever women are the ones to first notice that "settling" is not a good idea.

I know a woman who was with an idiot because she thought she couldn't get a better boyfriend. She now has a better boyfriend. The improvment is mainly in her realizing that she CAN do better, but still. With many women remaining single, there's some chance the most horribly misogynist assholes will have to stay single because even those women who feel they need a boyfriend can get a better one.

Or were you talking about my statement on spinsters? I was mainly talking about spinsters who ARE single, even though they would, theoretically, settle for any man.

The woman I mentioned above had no problems finding that stupid guy she was involved with first. He practically fell into her lap when she was a teenager.

A less superficially "pretty" woman might have to put a tad bit more effort into it, but I doubt involuntary singleness is a large-scale problem for women. (Not finding a GOOD man, is, yes, but finding any man at all ...)

It may be the lack of sleep Vestal, but I feel I still see women who settle for inequality or poor treatment in order to find a man. Maybe less so in educated, middle class circles.

INickedAName I have always thought it the logical conclusion to the "clever women are single" that being in a heterosexual relationship just is not good for women, and clever women are more likely to see that.

For a woman, getting any man at all is easy what with men outnumbering women in almost all age brackets. Any woman could find a man who wants her. What is not so easy is to find a man who meets high standards. I happen to know several clever women who are single because they don't want to settle for stupid men.

The "spinster" who would settle for any man at all, is a species that exists only in societies where there are significantly less men than women, due to wars. (And I think that even in those societies, the women more likely to be single are the ones who are not, let's say, overly motivated to run after and cater to men.)

I definitely need coffee before I can deal with today. I have 3 small boys arriving for a Halloween sleepover at 4.30pm. DD keeps trying to be helpful in setting things up, so everything is taking twice as long as it should.

Actually, I probably need gin, but I'll settle for coffee

Yes - stuff for packed lunches and tea. Or at least enough ingredients to make up these meals... I don't like any meal plans that anyone suggests on the internet because they are ALL WRONG for our taste...

Meal plan for a week Never?

And hope you get better soon EE.

I'm contemplating a meal plan but nothing looks very interesting at the moment. I think I need more coffee first.

Can I join you both for a quadruple espresso? I've got a stinking cold, so has DC2 who started waking just as I dropped off, finally got some sleep around 2. At 6 DSS ran from overseas in turmoil as he has split up with his GF. I need coffee...

Me neither. I'll have a second cup of tea ...

Just checking in (the pub had dropped off my radar). Nothing much to say for myself, so I'll just sit quietly in the corner with my drink

Goodness! They can't broadcast stuff like that in the morning...