Feminist Pub XX - may the summer rains wash the patriarchy down the plughole

Hello vioso

I've done very little about Christmas. I sent a case of wine to my DSis, coffee pods to my parents and I e bought DH a Fitbit and some slippers.

DH is in charge of everything else. I simply haven't had time. I'm really busy at work and he's been working away from home 4 days per week for the past 2 months. He finishes for Christmas tomorrow - I'm in the office all the way through to Christmas Eve.

I'll probably wrap most of the presents, but he'll be cooking the Christmas dinner. I can't imagine doing it all myself and working FT - especially as I'm doing the majority of running-around-after-children duty at the moment.

I find the same, all the women I know are busy working AND organising Christmas. The men seem to just be working, with their wives organising Christmas. Not in my house. OK, I've bought the presents for the dcs, but he's done the tidying, decorating, and ALL cooking for the family for the past few weeks because I've been working hard.

DP does the bulk of Christmas organising here since DS was born (we didn't do much before). He enjoys choosing presents for DS, decorating tree, wrapping presents. We try to share the fun stuff and the boring stuff.

We don't do Christmas cards as a rule, just for a few people who are too distant for us to see.

I really like the idea of "mirroring" male colleagues. Did this recently with a job I share with a male colleague.

I wondered a lot why everyone seems to be stressed out in the run up for Christmas, as it should be a time for mulled wine and cookies, and listening to Christmas music, no I realise that not everyone is stressed out, only women seem to be.

This is why I am in favour of women-only living arrangements. They should be an option for every woman, just to be able to see the opportunities.

In theory, women could just go on strike regarding the preparations for Christmas when they find their partner doesn't do his share of the work.

But it's Christmas, it is only once a year, and "will someone think of the children?"

So, providing the opportunity to celebrate Christmas for women (and children), while men who don't get off their behinds to do something are left to spend the day in a pub without anything special, could change things.

Can I come in for the first time, to be with some like-minded people ? I am so sick and tired of the same kind of conversations I seem to have the last days.
Me - Are you stressed out with Christmas preparations ?
Colleague 1 (male) - No, I am not, but my wife is frazzled ...

Me - How is your progress with Christmas preparations ?
Colleague 2 (male) - Oh, my wife does it all.

Me - I do this and dp does this ...
Colleague 3 (female) - You are lucky, I have to do it all.
Me - What ? What does your dh do ?
Colleague 3 (having worked with me long hours the day before) - Well, working.

Me - Are you all set with your Christmas cards ?
Colleague 4 (male) - My wife does it all ... I bought the stamps.

And so on ...

I wondered a lot why everyone seems to be stressed out in the run up for Christmas, as it should be a time for mulled wine and cookies, and listening to Christmas music, no I realise that not everyone is stressed out, only women seem to be.

We should promote a more long-term, sustainable approach to the problem. Tell women that, once the men did it once, it will be easier to get them to do it next time, and it will save time, eventually.

exactly, the number of men i hear who say they do it badly then don't get asked again, that wouldn't cut it in my relationship, obv. he needs more basic training at a very patronising level "this is how you pick up a spoon, this is how you open the dishwasher door, see this basket the cutlery goes in there, you place the cutlery in the basket, now i know you can get cutlery in your mouth so the much bigger basket shouldn't be a problem should it? now you show me with the fork... oh very well done who is a clever boy then, now prove you can remember show me with a knife!"

I am very lucky to have a husband of 20 years aren't i :)

@PassiveAgressive:

So true. At family Christmas dinner invitations, my mother always complains that I don't help the female relatives clear up - my response usually is that if the men cannot get off their behinds, then why should I?
(She is feminist-leaning in theory, but doesn't want to feel "like a bitch" as you put it.)

I sometimes feel women are their own worst enemy, why didn't every woman come and join you or organise the men into jobs helping the clean up with the immortal words "it won't do itself"

Probably because doing it themselves is easier than getting the men to help with it.
We should promote a more long-term, sustainable approach to the problem. Tell women that, once the men did it once, it will be easier to get them to do it next time, and it will save time, eventually.

Not sure it warrants its own thread, but science found that vaginal douching is associated with intimate partner violence. I would like to know why.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17659883

Maybe because feminists don't do it and also are less likely to stay in abusive relationships?

I don't drink tea or coffee so that's a good excuse to not get involved in that side of things.

We had a tea-and-biscuit thing once and I just sat firmly on my bottom while the (male) organiser organised tea for everyone. It was nice. (But I did have to keep telling myself to sit firmly on my bottom...)

Well I thought I could ask the men to help but then I'd be a nag instead of a bitch. That's much worse. It's the big Christmas party tomorrow so I'll see how that goes.

I'm constantly asked if I know where my (male) colleagues are - nearly always by men. My response 'I have no idea - I'm not their secretary.'

I bet no one ever asks them where I am...

We had an Xmas lunch, organised by a woman. It was a bring a dish buffet type thing. We all enjoyed it. As soon as it ended all the women started to clear up and the men stayed sat down and started talking business. So I sat down and joined in with the conversation. Felt like bitch.

I sometimes feel women are their own worst enemy, why didn't every woman come and join you or organise the men into jobs helping the clean up with the immortal words "it won't do itself"

Isn't that the same situation in tech? Women are seen as being good at planning and people so are pushed into those roles? Leaving the fixing things to men. I don't really know what tech is so I may be missing the point.

A while ago I started mirroring the men in my team. Here's a little summary so far:

Woman organised a charity bake off, lots of email exchanges between female team members about what a great idea it was. I promised myself I wouldn't express any enthusiasm unless a man did. None of them did. Felt like a bitch.

Man sent around an email saying that we should all donate to charity instead of exchanging Christmas cards. Everyone agreed. I received Christmas cards from all the women anyway and so I kept repeating that we'd agreed not to. Felt like a bitch.

We had an Xmas lunch, organised by a woman. It was a bring a dish buffet type thing. We all enjoyed it. As soon as it ended all the women started to clear up and the men stayed sat down and started talking business. So I sat down and joined in with the conversation. Felt like bitch.

Luckily I'm quite good at over-riding the 'feeling like a bitch' thoughts. I might buy some bitchy shoulder pads though. Those are still cool, right?

I've seen kind of the opposite in Tech - women always end up getting moved out of first-line/technical roles and into management/project management.

Do they pay them more, too?

I've seen the same stats for nursing.

I've seen kind of the opposite in Tech - women always end up getting moved out of first-line/technical roles and into management/project management.

I don't know the stats Joan, but I'm almost certain you are right. It is true in my (limited) experience. As yes, choosing to be a primary teacher for a man is considered awesome and supposedly demonstrates how kind and caring he is, whereas when women choose teaching it is assumed they want to work less hours / fit in with family life. Like single parents. A single dad is "aww how sweet he loves his kids" but a single mum is "she should have had an abortion / not had sex".

I was wondering about that never. Its not a hard leap really to think that the kind of parent who thinks poorly of young, childless, female teachers are likely to also be passing along sexist messages (such as boys are boisterous) to their children, and blaming the teacher rather than thinking "of course DS should be able to sit still for 5 minutes in yr6".

It's the glass escalator effect - I think Cordelia Fine talks about it. People are uncomfortable with men in traditional female roles and try to promote them to roles where they get to order people about. Or some such.

I think the stats are not as outrageous as that of secondary school teaching, but I don't know for sure.

It's the same with men in childcare. How men could contribute so much that women can't! I am all for more men in these roles but for goodness' sake can we not do it without putting down women further?

Strangely enough people who tell me that boys don't listen to female teachers are people whose sons are a bit "boisterous"... I think it's just excuses made for their children's behaviour.

I also find this fear-as-a-motivation thing a bit odd.

I decided to just disengage. The reasoning was that young, female, childless teachers like girls (because they sit nicely and read books) rather than boys (who are too boisterous for them to handle),

Well, that evens out rather nicely, then, as studies have proven most teachers give boys preferential treatment without even noticing.

Hooray for more childless female teachers!

(I know it's bullshit, don't worry. )

never, the strict thing is such a load of crap! Boys certainly do listen to female teachers (at least in my school), and the "strict" teachers often are ones who have to resort to shouting (usually due to having no other behaviour management strategies). I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking that having kids be afraid of you is simply not a good way of teaching most kids. Who the hell learns well when they're scared?!

WRT pirate costumes when the time comes, Ds will be wearing flip flops, cut off shorts and toting an AK47.

Thanks folks. I'm pretty rubbish at making tea and sandwiches never. I'm pretty good at teaching quadratic equations to teenage boys tho!

I decided to just disengage. The reasoning was that young, female, childless teachers like girls (because they sit nicely and read books) rather than boys (who are too boisterous for them to handle), and have no idea about family life (presumably because we all magically appeared, fully grown at 18, with no family and don't know any families / children outside work). There was so much wrong with that I didn't even know where to start!

I'm finding it increasingly hard to just ignore the sexism, but maybe that's because I'm facing an onslaught at the moment. DSis who keeps telling me how I'll feel "when" I'm a mum (I have no plans to be in the near future), a range of people expressing shock / concern / pity because I ended my relationship with fuckwit ex-fiancé (literally in the same breath "you seem so much happier" and "don't worry you'll be married with kids one day"), colleague making sexist "jokes" then getting annoyed when I point out that casual sexism isn't funny.

Fortunately it's nearly the end of term, and I'm having a large glass of Baileys when I get in tonight, watching the space shuttle dock with ISS and admiring my beautiful Christmas tree in my own (rented) house.

Oh but men bring so much to teaching! They are more sporty and can actually kick a football around! And they are more strict - little boys don't listen to female teachers, you know? (Actually said to me. No homicide was committed, but it came close. That is why I don't talk to people)