Ms, Mrs,Miss

Dadwashere "If in the UK Ms has adopted some kind of weird social sub-culture of 'divorced woman' then, the fates help you, its probably women policing women into that view as was suggested earlier in the thread."

That wasn't in my thinking at all because I have literally never heard of it.

What I find odd is that the choice is still there between Miss, Mrs and Ms. Also, the fact that many women choose not to use Ms. It doesn't make sense to me that in the 21st century, anyone wants their marital status attached to their title. Plus, I haven't really come across it but I guess some women have encountered people thinking they are making some kind of political statement with their "Ms" or they want to "hide" their marital status.

it all makes no sense given that title is just indicative of gender.

I think titles are okay in the sense that if you don't know someone - or hate them, lol - it enables you to have that formality of being Ms Parker to them, rather them being able to call you by your first name. Also helpful in formal situations.

Well there you go lass - that's two people, nooka and E's sister who thought a surname change was "automatic"

The solicitor who prepared our wills tried to tell me that I would automatically be Yonic DHName on marriage unless i took steps to stop it. And an accountant I work with said to me "but you will really BE Mrs, won't you, even if you don't use it?" That's two educated professional men within the last 10 years.

I'm very glad that you haven't encountered these issues though.

I agree - computer forms should include the option of no title as a matter of course.

Are there many women who genuinely don't know that they don't have to take Mrs? My teenage DD and her friends are all very well aware that they can choose their titles - they all seem quite mystified that we even have titles.

I understand those who say we should have choice, rather than be told what to do - but I think we do need people to know it is a choice. There are a lot of people who don't realise you don't have to be Mrs because you get married; some people think you have to become Mrs Hisname. My own sister was one of these, despite growing up in a household with books about feminism and so on. One of her reasons for not marrying was because she didn't like his name and didn't realise she didn't have to take it.

For it to truly be a choice, we need women to know it is a choice. We need computer forms to include Ms as an option, or even better, have the option of no title at all (there are very few of these - title is slmost always a compulsory field.) I prefer not to use any title, but I often don't have a choice about it.

Miss is definitely dying out imo. It will be Ms or no title (which much more sense) in the future - titles are meaningless, unless you're in the workplace. I do recognise, though, that titles - whether that's Mrs, Dr, Sir or whatever - are very important to individuals for whatever reason, so I wouldn't wish to impose my view on anyone else by dictating what they should or shouldn't call themselves.

The children at my ds's school use Miss or Sir for all teachers. No last names. They also use Miss and Sir as nouns- "I'll go and ask a Miss if I can do X"

Makes me want to scream!

I agree that miss is dying out. I use Ms everywhere and nobody bats an eyelid. Mrs isn't going anywhere though, some married women seem to love it.

I tend to just use my first name if I can because it's unusual and what I think of myself as - except at Starbucks, because there the unusualness is a problem, and actually I don't really want my name yelled out in public, as names have a certain power and I prefer to be anonymous unless I need to be known IYSWIM.

I don't see why most forms need a title at all, or why many need to know if I am male or female (and it's sex not gender). All very irritating. I do most of my work correspondence by email and always use just the first name as that's the etiquette I'm used to (public sector). Otherwise I'd just ask what the person wanted to be called.

I opted on Mrs on marriage and took my dh's name. Mostly to be totally frank because I was fairly young and didn't really think about it (dh's surname very similar to mine in any case). I'm more likely to pick the 'Ms' option now I guess, and always pick it for my dd when doing forms for her (she is a teen). I think that Ms will become much more of the default in a generation or two.

You might need them for work,but if it is the GP you know who are the doctors and if in hospital you could have name badge with position in the hospital under the name.

Makes me convinced, more than ever, that we could do away with all titles.
Anyway I am off out for the day you will be pleased to know.
So won't disturb you further.

Highly odd to think of it as a 'badge of honour' - it makes it sound as if it is a superior position - as it was back in the days of Jane Austin!

No Yonic I don't think it's done because it's just the automatic thing to do. It's not the same as saying please and thank you. There is a point to those as they are about other people's feelings and being polite and respectful to other people.

I'm in a profession which along with academe and acting is one where it doesn't cause any raised eyebrows to stay as Miss or Ms. Many women do but there are still plenty who seem to can't wait to adopt their new title. Sorry but my impression is there are many women who treat Mrs as some sort of badge of honour that they don't want to give up.

I get astounded in RL that the most militant feminists that I know are the ones that talk a lot but in the home they put up with things from their DH that I would never put up with. Pointless worrying about titles if you can't buy a pair of shoes in a sale without asking DH if it is OK or you can't announce you are going out for the day with a friend.

OP, I think it's pretty harsh to suggest that because Mehitabel prefers Mrs her husband is a bad 'un!

Certainly when I was at school it was "sir" (wonder why not "mister"?) and "miss" even for teachers who were Mrs Smith (though we said Mrs if using the full name).

Lass, what do you think societal pressure is? It's not about people standing round chanting at you if you do the "wrong" thing, it's about norms. As I've said before, there's societal pressure to say "thank you" for a gift, for example, but no one feels they are surrounded by dictators that make them do it. Equally, because there is a convention that women need to make a decision about their title and their surname, women all make that decision at some point. Very few men do, they are Mr Smith as soon as they stop being Master Smith. The automatic thing for them and all who surround them is to do nothing, change nothing, never ask "is it Mr or Master?" - it's as automatic as saying "thank you" for a gift.

Hope that clears it up.

Just looked at the local comprehensive - really did expect to find Ms there but not a single one, it was all Mrs or Miss.

I rather liked my children's old comprehensive they list staff with initial and surname and so you can't tell the gender at all.

I expect that is why I prefer Mrs -it is the norm and were I to use Ms I would be making a statement that I don't really want to make. I prefer to blend into the background.

As you might guess I don't live in London or a big city.

The more I think about why on earth do we need titles?
That is the archaic thing. All short for Mistress. Does it not strike you as odd that we are in 21st century and arguing about how to shorten a word that died out centuries ago- except for its modern connotation that is nothing to do with title.
Master seems very old fashioned to me and I never give titles to children.

I am not being obtuse- I do see that men have a blanket title and women don't. But why have any?

You won't find me in the relationship board because I have an equal relationship. Always have- made sure from the start. Not that it was difficult as DH had lived on his own and is quite capable of cleaning etc. if he needs a button sewing on he does it. In the same way I am quite capable of putting up a shelf.
I think this is why I can't get worked up by a title.
I grew up with brothers and no differences were made.

You are making out that I am an oddity which is why I think you are getting so cross.
I happened to be checking out a local primary school for a friend. It is a large one and 40 women employed as teachers, TAs office staff and not one single Ms they are all Mrs or Miss. I then looked at the school around the corner from me and there were 21women employed. Again not a single Ms.

I did my teaching in a different area and worked in many schools - primary- so mainly women and out of all the staff I remember there being 2 with Ms.
I have 3 children and all through school I think they had one Ms in total.

Schools are one place where you use the title. Not sure where else to look because other work places generally have names.

I don't know when you all get to use titles. I can't remember when I last needed mine. If I go to the dentist or doctor they call just my name. I work with children quite a lot but now that I am not teaching they just call me by my first name. If I telephone anyone I always just use my name. Someone mentioned wedding place cards but the last one that I went to it was just names. I suppose it is envelopes, but half the time I just get both my names without a title. I'm afraid I can't get worked up about an envelope that is discarded.

Children in primary school don't get the difference anyway - Mrs and Miss are inter changeable to them and little ones don't realise it denotes marital status. I was just as likely to be Miss.

Why have titles at all? We could just get rid of them. Maybe Lady so and so wouldn't like it- it would be more difficult to get a table at a popular restaurant!

its probably women policing women into that view as was suggested earlier in the thread

of couse if women didn't use " Mrs" that would resolve the issue. A woman could still use her husband's surname (or he take hers) if having a family name is important. It doesn't need "Mrs" added to it.

I expect I'll be told it's societal pressure and our old friend the patriarchy, so much pressure, too difficult to resist. I'm not convinced. I see so many young , strong intelligent women married to blokes who don't give the slightest indication they are patriarchal dictators being very happy to turn into Mrs.

That then brings us back to the point that it's not for us to tell other women what to do and it is the case many women are happy with this situation.