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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is feminism a left-wing thing?

133 replies

HirplesWithHaggis · 04/08/2015 03:07

Inspired by a comment (is it the done thing to name the poster? I assume not, but it would be giving credit for inspiration/thought-inducing rather than slagging her) on the AI thread, that she is not a left-wing feminist; fair enough, we all self-define.

But I had kind of always rather assumed it was/is, perhaps because I've been vaguely lefty and always feminist (apart from moments here when I've been told that I'm not a feminist because I'm not radfem) for about 40 years now. Am I totally out of date?

OP posts:
Coffeemarkone · 07/08/2015 11:42

Seems a really simplistic question really.
What is 'left wing' and 'right wing' anyway? Arent most people somewhere on either side of the 'divide'.
I dont think you need to be a socialist to want equal opportunities for women do you?
All those nice private schools in N London eg NLCS - hardly hotbeds of socialism are they? Yet they have been offering equal opps for girls for decades.
Silly question sorry.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/08/2015 11:42

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caroldecker · 07/08/2015 11:39

On the colour issue, I have just gone into customise and changed back to how it was - and also removed TIO from TIW.

My problem with Grand Unifying Theories is that they force people into boxes and remove choice. Barriers are set-up by the State and large corporations to protect thier postion and restrict choice. These barriers need to be minimised as much as possible, and only the right can do this. However, the modern right, particularly in the US is very socially illiberal, so is not much better than the Left in removing barriers.

DirtyDeedsD0neDirtCheap · 07/08/2015 11:39

interesting thread

i definitely identify as left wing

and am definitely a feminist

interestingly, the friends I have who are feminists and loud and proud about it (as am I) are also left wing

the friends i have who either don't really get feminism are usually the ones I would call right wing

I have more friends in the first category ;)

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/08/2015 11:36

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OTheHugeManatee · 07/08/2015 11:31

I suppose what I posted above comes at least in part from doing quite a bit of reading lately about speech codes and 'call-out culture' and particularly about the ways they are being applied in universities today - ways that in my view are worryingly inimical to free speech, academic freedom and education generally in any sense that is meaningful to me. I find it very strange. Also when I think back to a time when I was very preoccupied with structural inequalities and (I suppose) misogynist microaggressions (though I didn't call them that), I don't recall that the heightened awareness I had of these things translated into anything that was of practical benefit to me as a woman or even just as a person. Certainly my life as a woman and as a functioning individual has got easier in inverse proportion to how chippy I am about interpersonal relations.

Mostly, hyper-awareness of interpersonal micro-conflicts just made me miserable and angry. Or perhaps it was a channel for misery and anger I already had. I'm not sure. What I do suspect, though, is that these kinds of critiques are all very well as ideas but when people try to apply them practically the results do not seem to me demonstrably any better for the people supposedly being protected from oppression. Or, indeed, for the society within which they and others are all trying to function.

What you say about practical experiences of discrimination also resonates with me, albeit from a different angle. Recently, going through early pregnancy and then MC has led me to re-evaluate pretty radically my stance toward a number of areas of feminism. Prior to that being female-bodied seemed to me a minor detail which obviously it was absurd to discriminate against as what difference does it make in a non-manual workplace? But suddenly when you're facing morning sickness, trying to figure out how to handle time off for childbirth when you're working freelance, then needing time off to recover and grieve after miscarriage all kinds of practical/pragmatic things hit home to which there are no easy solutions. Though in general I'm not a huge fan of statist interference I find myself newly appreciative of the regulatory situation we have in the UK, which is massively better than many other countries for working women. But still not perfect - because the situation itself is inherently full of conflicting needs and wishes.

Pregnancy itself also throws up all kinds of interesting and difficult questions around bodily autonomy which intersect in quite complex ways with different political strands of thought. For example, the statist instinct to interfere in and regulate everything including health choices has an impact on how pregnancy and motherhood is discussed and handled from a public health point of view. Similarly the right-wing/libertarian stance of pragmatism, autonomy and personal choice comes into conflict with (also perceived as right-wing) socially conservative antipathy to abortions: should women be free to choose, or is a foetus a person and if that is the case what is the woman's rights in relation to this person who cannot survive independently of her body? Not easy questions and again not straightforwardly left=profeminist and right=anti.

I'm rambling a bit, I think, but I really enjoy unpicking the interrelations between political viewpoints and feminist ones because I just don't think it's useful to assume (as I think many do) that feminism is automatically a left-wing thing.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/08/2015 11:05

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 07/08/2015 11:05

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OTheHugeManatee · 07/08/2015 10:53

A few people on this thread have mentioned structural analysis type critiques of gender as something which obtains across both feminism and left-wing thinking and as such tends to mean someone is a lefty as well as a feminist. I think it was Buffy upthread who wondered what the equivalent right-wing analysis might be. I was thinking about that and don't think there is one, as such - because to me more right/libertarian thinking doesn't really go in for Grand Unifying Theories in the same way.

Possibly a digression, but IMO this is probably the most significant difference between the right and the left: the left generally has a vision for society - more just, more fair, more equal etc. It tends towards utopian ideals and has (often conflicting) grand theories about what's impeding utopia and what can be done to achieve it. Conversely, when I think of right-wing thinking I like and respect (and there is lots I don't) it tends to be pragmatic, to have a view of human nature that admits of a level of indelible ugliness as well as great beauty, and to be willing to tolerate a level of conflict and contradiction. Of course the best idealistic thinking may also have these traits, but utopian ideals by definition presume the perfectibility of human nature and as such are more likely to see pragmatism as corruption and human baseness of all kinds as evidence that More Needs To Be Done.

(I should also add that not all utopias are left-wing/progressive utopias, but when I think back over attempts to create utopias throughout history since, say, the French Revolution, the majority of them have been within the broad category of leftist/progressive.)

In that context, I think a lot of modern feminisms are - by virtue of imagining a utopia of gender equality - more likely to lean leftward than not. But as plenty of people have already said, this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. For example a conservative/pragmatic critique I sometimes hear of modern feminist tropes such as 'rape culture' is that while in theory it aims to foster equality and empmowerment, in practice it creates a climate of fear in which the women it hopes to protect come to see themselves as victims constantly under threat. Thus a feminist with a more pragmatic (rather than programmatic) stance might question its effectiveness at actually improving things for women, despite its positive intentions. Similarly, the modern culture of speech codes, 'calling out' and privilege-checking etc is well-intentioned and I absolutely grasp the theory behind it. Its logic is coherent, on its own terms. But personally I question its effectiveness, as a cultural practice, when it comes to actually improving things for any of the minority groups (including women) who come within its ambit.

All of this is to say, I suppose, that it would be a mistake IMO to look for feminist Grand Unifying Theories that have emerged specifically from a right-wing stance. I think this is because those elements of what I consider a right-wing stance that are compatible with feminism (as opposed, say, to right-wing social conservatism, which arguably isn't in any meaningful sense) are generally uncomfortable with Grand Unifying Theories and resistant to the authoritarianism that tends to follow upon trying to realise them in everyday life.

Twasthecatthatdidit · 06/08/2015 21:34

In Ireland lower paid pay v little taxes.

Twasthecatthatdidit · 06/08/2015 21:33

Apologies for typos!

Twasthecatthatdidit · 06/08/2015 21:33

Haven't read the thread but a lot of it is cultural. I grew up in the UK and live in Ireland - so in Ireland i would be considered right wing economically (welfare rates c high here, tax ovey progressive) but left wing socially.

caroldecker · 06/08/2015 21:30

Agree. But how would you build a left-wing state which provided choice?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 21:11

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caroldecker · 06/08/2015 20:02

I agree with you about choices and freedom and believe this is best delivered by a govt which does very little except enforce the law and regulates very little except to prevent market abuse.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:44

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caroldecker · 06/08/2015 18:38

In my head, left-wing is statist, therefore anyone who is against a large state is right-wing (be they conservatives or anarchists). That is probably not helpful though.
My right wing is against large state but not being replaced by large corporations. Governments need to regulate to prevent corporations putting barriers up against competitors and the market will provide.
Need to understand your use of neoliberal individualism to reply more specifically.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:38

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JustTheRightBullets · 06/08/2015 18:33

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:29

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caroldecker · 06/08/2015 18:29

justtheright Many PLC's are not held to account over issues as the shareholders don't care, the cost of non-compliance is low. Boycotts often do not work because of different information available to consumers and the fact thier policies are legal (such as amazon and tax-paying).
If they published a policy that they discriminated against women, I think a boycott would be successful.
If they published a policy of non-discrimination and the punishment for lying was a fine of say, 10% of turnover, shareholders would care due to cost of non-compliance.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/08/2015 18:25

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JustTheRightBullets · 06/08/2015 18:23

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YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 18:22

Buffy, is every Tory voter right wing and every Labour voter left wing?

Because I don't think the majority of voters would identify as either!

JustTheRightBullets · 06/08/2015 18:19

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