Demanding job

It's amazing the number of men who just cannot connect the dots.

Their sex life has died a death because their wife is exhausted, often unfulfilled, and utterly resentful. But they just cannot, for the life of them, work out how that state of affairs has come about.

They do not see for a second, that a little kindness, a little teamwork, a little less 'demanding of certain levels of tidiness' would (if it's not too late) turn things completely around.

The level of insight (and self-awareness: 'I have contributed hugely to this') is non-existent.

And then of course, you nip over to the relationships board, and you can see the aftermath that often occurs in this situation. The sort of men who can't connect the dots are often also the sort of men who then seek to get their needs met outside the marriage, so it's a double betrayal.

The idea of withholding sex is a common trope - as if women only ever have sex out of a sense of duty anyway..

Not wanting sex because you're exhausted from all the work, been up all night with the baby, and are just really annoyed at your partner for not pulling their weight? Inconceivable, you must be doing it on purpose to bully him. He has neeeeeeeeds you know.

How depressing that some men assume that women not wanting sex because they don't feel desire (because who can feel desire for someone who treats them like a skivvy?) is the same as women withholding sex they actually want out of some kind of malicious, controlling motive.

Ye gods.

hels I had the coming home to a shit tip. I walked back out the door and went to the bar. Told him I wasn't coming home until he had cleaned up. I was so furious and told his best friend what had happened a couple of weeks later. His best friend told him infront of me that he was losing respect for DH as a real man supports his family.

If I were you I would be looking to ask him to leave. I told DH that without him I'd reduce my workload by 25%.

I don't recall a single thread where a woman has complained, apropos of nothing, that her DH should work harder to provide or go for a promotion.

Let alone one where others have come on to agree with her.

I haven't seen any threads where women are complaining about their partners not working hard enough unless the bloke is 1) a lazy cocklodger or 2) intent on some selfish harebrained scheme or activity designed to benefit only himself

I don't see many of those kinds of threads fanofhermione, just the odd few where the DH wants to do something that would significantly reduce his income or can't hold down a job.

I do see more threads and discussions in RL where women talk about not doing paid work - or more paid work - because this wouldn't be good for the DC. Often there is the assumption there that men will continue to work FT+.

I actually think that Larry raises a couple of interesting points (and other I disagree with :))

I think that the idea of treating HW as you would a job and that needs to be done to a certain standard, I actually agree with. I would also put childrearing in there too. I would because it's not possible to tell my DH that being a SAHM, my job is to look after the dcs, therefore I expect him to muck in when he comes back because I've worked the same way he did, and then to not expect that job to be done to a certain standard.
The issue I have is when the standards are set up by the man with no input from the woman and that it's the man who gets to tell his DW off 'for not tidying up well enough'. I don't think anyon would imagine a woman setting up the standard for DIY, gardening or whatever else and tell the DH off if it's not good enough!
That's where there is a BIG difference with a job in a company. There is no boss to tell you how a job should be done and it certainly isn't the role of the man in the house!
So YY to do things to a certain standard but a bigger YY to agree together about what are these standards and what is manageable or not (ie what is actually possible to do in the day when you look after a baby. What should take priority etc...).

I do agree that there are plenty of threads on MN with women saying that men should be working hard (or harder) to provide for their family. This is rooted in the familiar patriarcal organisation and we, women, do play that game too. So expect men to 'provide' whilst our role isn't to provide but to keep the house running.
The issue is when you go out of the 'usual' organisation but expect to keep all the rest the same. ie when women work FT, long hours, demanding job but their DH refuses to step up to do some HW. Or when for men decide that they do not want to high power job that is bringing plenty financially but is very demanding but it means that their DW has to step up 'to provide' too and it usually met with ressentment on the side of the women. Just look at the threads about women wondering if they should go for x job 'because they would have to spend les time with their dc' even though it's an 'easy' 9-5 type of job

Some counsellors are crap. I know a Relate counsellor in RL who talks about her clients (anonymously but still unprofessional IMO), has a clear "staying together is best" agenda, and continues seeing people as couples where there is abuse involved.

BaCP accredited counsellors have more training at least.

Someone upthread argued that with school age DC it's fair for the parent (for which I read woman) who works the least hours or lower paid job to do more at home. IMO that ignores the social context in which couples make these decisions, eg I know LOTS of women who would prefer to do more paid WOH but can't because their Hs and/or their H's employers simply won't compromise, eg on travel, long hours.

Shocked by the advice hels received from the councillor.

What really annoys me with some of my friends is the way taking the bin out is discussed as though it is the hardest job ever.
As if taking the bin out is as difficult and time consuming as cooking the evening meal every night.

Hels, if he expects praise for even tiny things like emptying the dishwasher and got angry when this wasn't forthcoming you do have a man with an entitled, crappy attitude there!

If you cut out the stuff you do for him your domestic work would significantly reduce. Why do you feel you must continue to do his work for him? It must be exhausting. And sets a shit example to the DC.

Larry - it's not about withholding sex. That would suggest that the woman otherwise wants it, and is refusing to partake of it, to make a point.

It's about killing, stone dead, any desire in the woman, because she's treated like a maid or a skivvy, by a man who somehow thinks he's her boss. Having sex with such a man would be a complete chore; not enjoyable in the slightest. She is not partaking because she absolutely does not want to.

Do you understand the quite considerable difference?

DH and I had an interesting conversation about this the other day.

We both work full time and don't yet have any DC. I am self employed, which means I can work from home some days, but frequent have to work very long days and my work is pretty intellectually and emotionally draining. DH's job is 9-5 and arguably not as intense as mine.

DH is far more domestically minded than me. He actually enjoys the little tasks of running the home. He does all of the washing up and cleaning the kitchen, and takes charge of the tidying, laundry, hoovering, bins. I do the weekly on-line shop, but DH does the top-up supermarket run every 2-3 weeks.

I sometimes 'help' with the tidying, laundry and cleaning, but would say that DH does 90%. I am in charge of cleaning the bathroom and my biggest contribution is cooking dinner, which I will do maybe 5 nights a week and either DH will cook or we will get a takeaway for a couple of other nights. I do the dusting far less often than it actually needs it.

DH does most of the house admin, such as renewing insurances etc, but I will arrange for any necessary trades to visit the house as I can work from home far more easily. DH does the maintenance for the car and bikes.

I brought up in discussion that it feels like I actually contribute less than he does to the running of the house, and if you added up the total numbers of hours a week this is true. He does still end up with more leisure time, as I work longer hours. When I said that I felt he contributes more, he disagreed. He pointed out that I do take charge of the garden (I came up with a landscaping design a couple of years ago and do a couple of hours a fortnight maintenance) and I take charge of the DIY projects (I have built some fitted furniture in our house as it currently is and am busy planning the interior design of our forthcoming extension and conversion). I enjoy gardening and DIY and see this as my hobbies rather than chores, but DH said that he values it as a contribution to our lifestyle and the general amenity of our environment. We agreed that it takes far more 'thinking' and skill than the washing up and laundry does.

Our household roles are pretty much reversed from traditional gender roles. I do wonder if we have a fair split. DH is happy, and he is the one who said that my DIY and gardening contributions may require less time to do, but have an equivalent 'value' to the more time consuming daily tasks that he does. I do wonder at this. Is it a fair comparison? Or is he automatically undervaluing the tasks that are traditionally seen as the woman's domain?

Ooh, I like this thread!

We both have "demanding jobs" and the rule is - whoever is home first sorts dinner out. We have "blue jobs" and "pink jobs" - so his jobs include cleaning the bathroom, all the hoovering, all the ironing, looking after the gardens.
I sort the washing, kitchen, general financial stuff and dogs out.
We food shop together and agreed this year that for any medium or large diy jobs, we'll just get someone in to do it.

I don't nag him about his jobs - I just do my share. If he doesn't have a shirt ironed for work, that's his issue - my job is to make sure he has clean shirts in his wardrobe. He can't complain that the bathroom is a mess, cos it's up to him to clean it.

It is interesting how many threads on here complain about men not going for promotions, or choosing to do less demanding jobs and the general consensus is that they should work hard to support their families.

Dowager,

So should a man withold sex from a woman who expects him to do his job to a certain standard?

Thank you for this thread.

I have been called a man-hater on a couple of threads recently, and I just can't fathom it. Because I have zero tolerance for lazy, feckless men, I'm a 'man-hater'.

I mean, unless ALL men are feckless and lazy, then I don't see how thoroughly disliking the ones who are, is being a man-hater.

My DH is a fully competent human being - kind, thoughtful, pro-active and capable. So is my Dad, and my brother. I'm surrounded by lovely, capable men, and so when I see other women complaining about their inept versions, and I say 'you don't have to put up with this', I'm called a man-hater. By other women.

I suggest that if they think hating feckless men = being a man-hater, then they're the haters, not me.

I honestly think SAHM-dom is such a risky little game, unless you're with a throughly decent bloke, who doesn't have a mysogjnist bone in his body. I even think that having a SAHM can bring out previously dormant arsehole/rampantly sexist tendencies. It's not great.

Larry - I suggest that if such men want to maintain any sort of satisfying sex life with their life partners (I assume they would like their partners to actively want to have sex with them), they might want to re-think their 'demanding a certain level of tidiness' stance...

No,af, I don't. I have expressed very clearly that there are 2 jobs to be done and 2 people who share the benefits of both jobs.

and the WOHP benefits from the work and free child care done by the SAHP

you make it sound like a one way system

No, af, as in a workplace, it should be arrived at by consensus. However, surely it is equally unfair for one partner to have their standards broadly dictated to them (and this IS what happens in most workplaces, it is called a job description) and the other partner to entirely self define the job. Both partners share the money and the house after all.

I don't consider workplace "standards" (usually arrived at by consensus, established hierarchy or subject to certain lawful or industry specific requirements) to be anything like the descriptions of the attempts at tinpot dictatorship sometimes described on here by the WOHP (most often male)

if I were a SAHM I would not consider my husband to be my boss

do you think that should be the case, Larry ?

I think there is a big difference between a stay at home parent of pre school/ nursery children and a SAHp of school children. The latter gets a lot of free time and should take responsibility for the majority of household chores. There are also a lot of complaints about husbands (generally) demanding certain standards of tidiness. I am not sure what is wrong with that as the working parent has to meet certain standards every day too and the SAHp gets to share the fruits of him meeting these standards.

Ultimately the idea of equal free time and equal demands seems eminently fair to me.

Hels it sounds very frustrating. DH took about 5 years to get the hang of domestic tasks (his mum did everything at home, his dad did the "manly" jobs like lawn mowing and gutter clearing and so on), and only then because he was working from home and doing the house stuff was part of a deal we made in exchange for him being able to pursue a career that doesn't earn any money. It also helps that I have low domestic standards and could look the other way while he learned.

I do try to say thank you when DH does something I don't want to do around the house, but I expect him to say thank you when I do as well. And I do the same thing that you're describing - "look look what I did, I've achieved" until he does say thank you.

Hels - I'm no paragon here, DP and I have issues, but what I do when it gets too much is just not make any extra effort for DP.

I don't unball his socks before putting in the washer, I don't fold his clothes out of the dryer, I don't go hunting for his clothes or cups to wash. I just wash what's in the basket (and the kids stuff - although the kids are better about putting clothes in the basket than he is though). I put anything of his that I'm tidying up either in a big box of things dp is too important to tidy, or just in a heap. That's not being petty, that's conserving energy. We call it 'Sanctions' - he knows that if I'm imposing sanctions then he's let himself slip and he needs to pull his socks up.

Something that drove home to me how much more he could do for very little effort was getting a nanny a couple of days a week. She was paid to look after the kids, yet I'd come home to a swept, tidy living room floor, filled dishwasher, and clean sides in the kitchen. Just having one extra pair of adult hands that pulled their weight made a huge difference - DP saw the difference in me too.

Yeah I do all the washing too, changing sheets, washing towels and every bit of the cooking. I look after 4 children as far as I see it
I just don't know how to make him see what I do every day, its as if he is oblivious to it, like theres some magic fairy who gets it all done. Yet if he doesn't something like empty the dishwasher on a rare occasion he expects a bloody medal. He actually said that at the counselling appointment - incredulously 'you didn't even notice' I did notice, but why should I have to comment and thank him? The dishes are his too!