Demanding job

They have zero responsibility to do jobs that are solely for the benefit of the other partner. They have zero responsibility to do a job to a standard above that which they feel is reasonable.

Just as they have zero pension, zero redundancy, zero paid holiday.

The benefits of being a SAHP are that you get to make your hours around your responsibilities. In exchange for 12 hours of looking after a 1 year old, you get a few hours free once they're in school (but still on call - a responsibility for which there are generally further perks if you are WOH). You never get to say 'sorry, I've had enough, I'm going home' you can't quit. You are where the responsibility ends. In return for some freedom to go to the gym (after 5 years of service), you tie yourself down to being on call 24 hours, to perform any task required. You tell me how appealing that would be as an out of home job prospect?

There is no job like being a parent - even a nanny gets to clock out at the end of the day.

No, read my posts. Not going to reiterate. However, what is your standard? Nothing? SAHp has zero responsibility to their partner regardless of age of children or other commitments?

A fair standard is equal free time for both partners. I think that it is hard to argue with this.

So your argument is that if you are a stay at home parent, you are effectively employed by the parent working outside the home. If your children are in school, you are expected to fulfil other duties mandated by your contracting partner to an acceptable level as decided by the contracting partner. Failure to demonstrate that you've been busy in work-related activities will what? Garner the traditional beating? A particularly good job will earn a twenty to be spent on something nice?

If a child is at school, it is physically impossible to parent for 12 hours. Even if a child is not, 12 hours per day of active parenting is not healthy for a child. Every single job has its 'shit' elements. You cannot just biece you are above them and opt out.

A fair standard is equal free time for both partners. I think that it is hard to argue with this.

I think you're constructing a straw man argument to avoid talking about the central issue of shared housework, larry. Whether it's a job or not has nothing to do with whether both parties should pull their own weight at home and avoid treating home like a hotel and the SAHP like a domestic servant.

If we take an averagely demanding WOHP job, they are out of the house for, say, 12 hours. They sleep for 8. This leaves 4 full hours plus the weekend for doing household tasks. Standards can therefore be jointly maintained because both are contributing.

As an aside, if SAHP were a job, the clue is in the name - it's Stay At Home Parent, not Stay At Home Skivvy. So for the 12 hours they are parenting, not vacuuming.

As a further aside, I think it's very sad that the construct that you turn to in order to give wifework more social cachet is "working for the man". I know, let's give wifework the same titles as traditionally male roles, ie let's call it a "job" conveniently overlooking that SAHP is work that is very far from having all of the protections that brings, like a salary and employment law and a pension and so on.

Is a SAHp (parent, not mother) a job or not? If it is and deserves respect, there also have to be standards attached.

If the working parent has zero say in the standards, this seems very unfair to me as he/she has to meet standards at work. In addition, the reality is that the SAHp feels they should have a say in the working parent's life (whether to go for promotions, to work longer hours) etc. they feel that these are family decisions as they affect the whole family. This is true but so does the work of the SAHp.

I am not advocating a boss/employee relationship. However, in the same way a working parent with zero drive it ambition will quickly lose his/her partner's respect, so will a SAHp who feels that their partner has no say over what happens in the home.

I clearly am speaking from my own perspective/demographic but seeing SAHp (of school aged children) using a combination of gym/personal trainers and school committees as a substitute for work while choosing to sah is not a healthy relationship model for many.

Nah. Not if you know it's Larry.

It's actually astonishing that anyone would come to a thread on the feminist board to seriously suggest that men are the domestic line managers.

Or when they think it actually is their job - like on their cars.

Most men I've ever met, are almost OCD obsessive about keeping their cars clean. They see the slightest speck on it and immediately wipe it off/ clean it up.

They're quick enough to see dirt then.

Totally with you OP. Drives me nuts too. WRT 'men don't see mess' I htink it's bullshit: anyone noticed how they seem to see it if they think it's someone else's job to tidy/clean?

My experience is an exception to the norm and other women are when they see it in action.

For a start I didn't identify with my DM growing up. I was always told I was like my df so expected to grow up and have his life (woh & minimal childcare/housework). DP grew up without any father figure so never 'learned' gendered domestic roles.

I was a ft working single mum (fairly well off) when we met. I was clear that him moving in wouldn't mean I'd ever be doing any chores for him.

We now have an almost complete gender reversal of the 1950s stereotype role division. I work to pay for the lifestyle he wants. I don't even know how our his washing machine works.

It works for us. The place isn't as spotless as a 'wife' would keep it but I'm happy working and not ever having to think about dirty dishes and he has no career ambitions whatsoever, preferring to spend hours pottering in the kitchen.

I "see" mess far less than DH; he has experienced very cluttered houses and is quite sensitive to them. I don't think it's in the chromosomes...

Larry - you're the one who introduced an example of a dysfunctional relationship (equating an intimate, loving relationship with an employer-employee scenario) into the thread. I merely responded by outlining the consequences of same.

Of course resentment can be a two-way, gender-irrelevant street. You're merely proving my point. Actions have consequences, which can be fundamentally detrimental to a relationship. I was simply responding to the scenario you seem to think is OK.

And no, I wasn't guessing what you think. Your exact wording is there in black and white, further up the thread:

There are also a lot of complaints about husbands (generally) demanding certain standards of tidiness. I am not sure what is wrong with that as the working parent has to meet certain standards every day too and the SAHp gets to share the fruits of him meeting these standards.

I put it to you that a couple, where the woman is a SAHM, might find more lasting happiness if the husband avoids treating her like his employee, and more as an equal partner in a team.

Oh hush Basil dear, you know feminism is only about high flying women, not the vast majority of women who stay at home because it's not worth them going back to work, because their DPs seem to think that the little woman pays for the childcare with her wages....

Anyway, we know that SAHM sit on their arses all day and eat chocolate, or meet friends for coffee... because that's what the vast majority of women have the disposable income to do. Oh no, hang on a minute......

Thanks Duck, I know I shouldn't feel guilty. It makes no sense but I do. DH very rarely feels guilty about anything and freely admits this.

Sweet, you have a lot on your plate, hang in there! in your shoes most men (unlikely to have done as much night work and obviously no breastfeeding) would certainly NOT feel guilty!

I think women's choices are also constrained by how they are socialised, ie socialised as carers for the family.

For example, I currently feel very guilty because DH is doing all nights with DD (which he's only been doing for a week, and she's 19 months old). And yet:

• I am the sole household breadwinner
• I went back to work when DD was 5.5 months but still breastfed her until 10 months so I did all nights until then
• DH is a SAHD
• My job is insanely demanding, particularly at the moment, and I have about 3 hours commute each day on top of that

And yet I'm still conflicted about the fact that we're not sharing nights.

Yeah, sure Larry, you've rumbled me, I hate women really and think we're all pathetic.

It's not necessarily high flyers actually. They're usually quite good at hanging onto their careers if they want because they can outsource domestic work. It tends to be people further down the career ladder.

Also no point reminding you that no-one makes choices in a vacuum and that women's choices are constrained a) by the choices of the men they live with b) by their employers' choices and c) by the differential power relations between them.

The 'standards' you speak of are, in my household, entirely self-imposed. I like my house to be clean and tidy.
We both work hard, long days in our jobs. I come home and start again - with everything at home that needs to be done. DH comes home and collapses in a heap with a beer. Whilst I feed children, do bedtime routine, cook our dinner, in between sorting washing and dishwasher and tidying up. And then he wonders why I'm too exhausted for sex by bedtime. Resentment from him, resentment from me.

Ask,
Sure, and these high flying career women have no say in the matter. You must know some very passive women, they bear no correlation to the women that I know. You have a very poor opinion of womankind.

If men don't like the fact that women sometimes have some free time when they're SAHMs, maybe they should make more effort to support their DPs' careers when the babies come along.

They could for example, go part time themselves, do flexible working, ensure that their DPs can go back to work and actually function there. Most men don't bother to ask for part time hours when they have kids, do they? They drift into "traditional" roles, then get irritated that women who don't want to spend their time doing housework but have lost the marketability they had before children, sometimes do things they actually might enjoy in the daytime instead of cleaning up the house. The uppity princesses.

Correct, you are guessing. This is a 'he said', 'she said' type of argument and depends on individual circumstances.

She said: ' he treats me like a dogsbody, expects me to do drab housework to a certain standardAnd still expects me to desire him'

He said: ' I work 11 hours a day for a demanding boss to bring plenty of money to support my family. My wife has been to the gym, met s friend for coffee and spent an hour on mumsnet. And I come home to a shot heap. Why should I respect and desire her?'

And, normally, the truth lies somewhere in between. I know both types of relationships (and some useless stay at home dads too).

And I'm guessing you still think it's OK to 'expect a certain standard of tidiness' from your minion.

It most certainly is relevant. It is completely relevant, if the impact of one's behavior is causing a cornerstone of a healthy relationship to deteriorate beyond repair.

I brought sex into the conversation for a very specific reason. We're not talking about a blip in an otherwise healthy relationship, are we?

But of course, you would say that.

Ugh, both sexes can lose desire for any number of reasons, especially resentment. C'est la vie. Sex is not a right anyway. I never brought sex into this conversation. It is not really relevant,