Demanding job

Let's take another point then, larry.

Why do you think there are so many threads on here where women describe the homework and childcare balance between them and their partner as (a) unequal, and (b) exhausting to the point of desperation. Do you assume they are merely a vocal minority? Or lying?

Put another way, do you really think that in the majority of cases, the man does a fair and equitable amount of housework and we're all just being a bit hysterical about a non-problem. And further, that this imbalance doesn't systemically limit women's ability to fully realise their potential (eg doing jobs they like and want to do)?

I'm a bit worried about the bubble you live in if that's the case.

Fan,

A lot of people have either some money or helpful grandparents. You need one or the other, not both.

In the worst case scenario (as you outline above), it is very tough. Six years is slightly overegging the pudding though. If there is a two year gap and they start nursery at around 2.5, you only have both of them full time for 6 months and the total period before both at nursery is 4.5 years. If three year gap, the period of one 2-3 year old is not that tough, before the second one is born. You are picking an extreme scenario, too, to illustrate your point (as, maybe, am I).

A lot of people put children into 'nursery' a long time before 2.5 as well.

I am sorry if you have had it very tough but, again, this is not really typical.

And again read threads aboout women who have enough because their DH does fuck all, doens't know the baby routine, never puts the chiild to bed, so much so that said baby/toddler doesn't settled for them so mummy can never go out etc etc...

Your view of how the world is NOT reflecting reality.

Larry I would suggest that you also read all the threads about people not getting on with their parents or PIL, all the ones who have massive issues with said grandparents looking aftre the dcs (there is one atm about a MIL that refuses to give the baby back after one night away. I doubt they are going to ask her to look after the baby soon again...).
Masybe you should also look at threads aboyt people sep[[arating and how often they say 'I have no family nearby. We moved xxxx'.

People move nowdays. A lot more than beofre. And with that comes the fact you have no help.

lasrry if you 'shared' roles then you have no idea sorry. You would have an idea if you actually had been in full cahrge of said baby and toddler for several days in a row, whilst been expected to maintain all the standards of washing, ironing, cleaning, cooking to the same standard than a SAHP would have. Do that for a few years. Then, only then, you will be able to say you have an idea (and even then, know that you won't because you will get the breaks at work, the mental stimulation and the opportunity to talk to adults!)

A baby and a toddler, if they are 2 or 3 years apart isn't 'just a short time'. It's 6 b*y years! Would you be happy to do a job that is so demanding for 6 years and get no recognition whatsoever? Would be happy to then have someone coming over to tell you that 'your job isn't up to standards'? Serioulsy?
Because I don't know anyone who would be staying in that job if it was the case tbh. (And actually many women do bet divorced because they are so taken for granted. Being divorced, at least, they DO get a break every so often...)

As for having help nearby with grandparents... well I'm happy that YOU do have some support but bear in mind this is far from the case for everyone. Some people have family nearby who they don't get on/don't want to help etc... Some people have no family nearby (When I look around me, this the case for most people tbh).

As for your 'not national wage' again, I'm happy to see that you are financially wealthy bit this is far from the case that only people who earn well have a SAHP. Lots of people on low revenue do. By default because they can't pay for the childcare :(

In effect you are talking about a few select few with non average situation where everything is so easy that they can have breaks, help at home, grandparents AND enough money for a holiday etc...
Maybe stop thinking about that very small group of people and look at the bigger picture.

Baking,

A lot of grandparents (of all classes) do a lot of parenting these days. You only need to look on these boards to see grandparents taking children for whole days and sometimes even several days at a time.

The idea of a SAHp being a slave to house and children (especially school age children) is, I suspect, not that common these days. I agree, however, intersectionality (as it would be called here) plays a big part. I don't know many men who feel that they can come home from work and put their feet up. They normally help with bedtime and bath time and the cooking and clearing up of dinner Andy, in many cases, do most of these.

Pretty sure that classing the hours worked by a SAHP as employment would ensure that the working time directive was broken with alarming regularity.

Plus, larry seems only able to talk about a tiny minority of households, whereas the vast majority of SAHPing is done by women in far less salubrious socio-economic groups.

Not fully but have shared role when we had toddlers/babies. I know what it entails.

I agree pre school is tough but that is very time limited. It totally depends on circumstances but most sahp parents manage breaks (grandparents, home help etc) and most take holidays where whop is equally responsible for children. Again depends on salary band but even adding all those salaried together, most SAHp I know earn multiples of it. Agree, not national average.

Btw larry have you ever been in the place of the SAHP with children not at school?
And then with children in primary school?

If it's a job like any other then, can you tell me:

• at what time is the day of the SAHP starting and finishing?
• when are the breaks in the day?
• are you entitled to a day off if you are ill?
• what about overtime? Can you get it back? How many hours should you work? Surely working 12~14 hours a day plus weekend and nights would make it an extremely demanding job. Does it mean that the SAHP can get more support from the WOHP then?

serioulsy, you can see how easy it is to show that being a SAHP can NOT be compare as such with a work. Even if you compare it a live in nanny (who gets paid btw), you would never imagine to ask as much from an 'employee' than you do from a SAHP.

The comparaison re being a SAHP is work is about recognition that
1- it takes time and energy to do it
2- it's hard work
3- the work done is actually valuable, just as valuable as being 'at work'. A SAHP is at the same time the cleaner (who would be paid a good £8ph), a nanny and night time nanny. If those people are regarded as doing a valuable job that will be paid for, then surely what a SAHP does during the day is also valuable? Oh and yes these people would also get some breaks in the day etc... as any other worker would. So why being so hang up about the 'free time' a SAHP has?

Buffy,

I am arguing for treating the stay at home role equivalently to any other job. This entails embracing the role professionally in return for 50% of the household income.

You may not be arguing for full relaxation while school age children are at school but several posters have (as a quid pro quo of the hard work pre school). I also know many parents who do have an awful lot of spare (as in completely free) time as they have plenty of home help.

OP I totally agree.

Dp earns less than me, works fewer hours yet the stuff he "doesn't see" is ridiculous. I think it does come down to upbringing. My mum taught me how to run a house, bills, cleaning, ironing etc. DPs mum taught him to use a washing machine and thought this was progressive.

A conversation at the weekend:

DP 'we need an extra chair for lunch'
Me 'yes I know'
DP 'I think there's one in the garage'
Me 'yes'
DP 'well is there one in the garage?'
Me 'you are just as capable of me of looking in the garage, how about you look yourself?'
DP goes off in a huff to look for the chair.

I think it's partly learned helplessness and tbh I'm not always great at saying, no you do it.

Larry, I don't know anyone who has a say over their partner's work life. DH might tell me if he was up for promotion, but I wouldn't get to dictate whether he went for it or not, that would be up to him. Equally, he doesn't dictate to me what I do in my work. Does your wife demand certain standards of your paid work?

Larry, your comments are right there on the thread, in black and white, for us to refer back to. You said:

There are also a lot of complaints about husbands (generally) demanding certain standards of tidiness. I am not sure what is wrong with that....

What is 'husbands demanding certain standard of tidiness', if not the WOHP being in charge...?

Do you run your own marriage like this?

You're not arguing for equality, you're suggesting that the person who has no division between their work and home life should have 24 hour monitoring by someone whose work ends at a specific time each day and can come home to relax and issue orders.

'I am sure larry gets a lot of satisfaction from being in charge of his own little world'

Yup, at least it is a real world and not a virtual one.

I am being attacked with a lot of 'straw man' arguments. I have never said the WOHP is in charge, merely that he/she should have input. I have also said that there are two jobs to be done by a couple, the home and bringing in income. As a partnership, there should be equal input into both jobs. Clearly, the SAHP cannot go into the WOHP's work, but they can have input into hours worked vs income, location of job, whether to go for promotions etc. Equally, the SAHP does not get complete autonomy. I am arguing for genuine equality on all fronts.

Unless there are any men here who have actually been at the coal face, at home with young children and a house to maintain, their opinion is fairly irrelevant.

I am a SAHD to two preschool DCs, one with SN, who has a DW with a genuinely demanding job. I am only saying this because my opinion is still irrelevant, because this is a structural problem, not an individual one (in my admittedly irrelevant opinion)

It's very, very telling that Larry equates the WOHP as being the line manager, the one to whom the SAHP is accountable for meeting the standards.

#WomenCanSee

I am sure larry gets a lot of satisfaction from being in charge of his own little world

There are also a lot of complaints about husbands (generally) demanding certain standards of tidiness. I am not sure what is wrong with that as the working parent has to meet certain standards every day too and the SAHp gets to share the fruits of him meeting these standards.

Gobsmacked at this particular nugget. The working parent is reporting to a boss . The SAHP is NOT the junior employee of the Working parent.

I was a SAHP for 10 years, and had my husband demanded "certain standards" he would have been singing descant within minutes. Of course, my standards were so wonderful he would never have had room for complaint anyway. :)

One of the things I really wonder is what these people would do if they were a two parent/people working household? It doesn't seem to cross their minds that if both people worked then no-one would be able to claim a 'demanding job' and not just get on with it.

I do wonder whether some women almost encourage this tbh. FIL was a bit useless when the kids were growing up apparently (fine now though it has to be said re housework) and MIL moans but is quite surprised that anyone could have expected it to be any different as he 'had a demanding job'.

He did, but plenty of people have demanding jobs, and so does their spouse, and they do function. How do these single working households imagine other families live I wonder?

You also get a lot of criticism on here about people with nannies/childcare and cleaners, as though there isn't anything left to do after they have been and gone in a normal family with children. Of course there is, but some people, largely women, froth on here at the very suggestion that paying for help is anything other than the height of laziness. They are piling it onto women too.

What I find odd is the fact that when a woman does childcare a housework it's easy and nothing but when a man does it it's time consuming and noteworthy. It's interesting how few men line up to do the lovely relaxing job of a SAHP on days off or at weekends because in actual fact they know how hard it I and they know looking after children while running a house isn't such a cakewalk.

The litmus test for this is to look at the amount of housework unemployed men do when their DP is at work.

I think you'll find the answer is: very little.

You're a stalwart of this board, Larry. frequently in here, mansplaining why we're doing it all wrong, even though you have no direct experience yourself.

I'd say most of us on this thread alone, have been both a SAHP at one point, as well as a WOHP. And this being the feminist board, a fair few of us with professional, senior management experience in 'demanding' jobs.

Forgive us, then, if we continue to take your rather narrow viewpoint with a grain of salt.