Demanding job

Frankbough do you actually understand what a parent does?

What are these jobs poster are doing that are so demanding.. Me and Mrs Bough and I both have a fitbit, she works in the NHS frontline services, I do less hrs, burn twice as many calories and the work is complex and bespoke, in fact there isn't a learning course for what I do, just yrs and yrs of experience.. Initially this was a test to see who had the most "Demanding" job, anyway she lost..

Your not at the bloody coal face organising playdates, shopping, cooking meals and changing nappies, or pushing a vac or unloading a dish washer.. And why do some parents enrol there little brats in numerous activities and then complain when they are fed up of ferrying them around, the solution is simple , don't do it..
If you resent your partner over a chair or because you had to bake some bloody buns, then I'm sorry you need a reality check...

Men could get into that type of stuff if they wanted to. They have no problems when it's something they do want to do (like school governors - the example given above).

Indeed. They manage to coach sports and that kind of thing - if they have any interest they can manage to do it just fine despite the impossible barriers erected by women.

I think schools are far more reluctant to ask dads to help out than mums, as dads have demanding jobs and are busy and important and this doesn't help with the wifework often falling to the mother.

I find it interesting that when my DCs are injured/sick/forgotten PE kit, it is always me who gets the phone call from school. We have childcare set out to deal with these situations, school has the number as priority 1 on the phone call list we fill in.

I always get the phone call first, and have a huffy school secretary on the line if I either don't get the message, or say that I will arrange for the DCs to be collected by someone other than me. DH has never been phoned by the school.

Men will do things for school, but often not off their own bat - a colleague of mine manned a stall at the school fete - because his wife was on on the organising committee. He wouldn't have volunteered by himself. Also, mostly going by work people, those who are likely to get involved - men or women - it's the same names every time. Some people just don't have time, but some are just selfish gits.

Oh bullshit women are alienating men to do stuff around school. Men could get into that type of stuff if they wanted to. They have no problems when it's something they do want to do (like school governors - the example given above). It's just when the rewards and status aren't really there that they cry "but women don't let us".

It smack's of saying to women our oppression is our own fault.

agree that a lot of 'school based' activities require 'mums' to go along to help out. Plenty of women do, which can end up alienating the few men who might want to do it too. There was a school that tried to encourage men to go along by tagging it a 'dad's day' and got a huge backlash... they can't win!!

It's not just schools that are reliant on women's unpaid time and labour to keep society going. The whole of our society is underpinned by it, not just in the home, but in the wider community as well. Organisations such as the WRVS, the WI, Friends of various hospitals etc. are generally run by women and the average volunteer in this country is a middle aged female. Many charities have about 70-80% of volunteers being female and in line with what Hermione is saying about gender norms, the ones where there is a higher percentage of men, are those which require volunteer drivers.

But men do participate in the school life too. Usually as governors.
What we have us a system where women organise how to raise money in a way that is more likely to appeal to women (eg cake stall).
There are plenty more if other ways to do so. Eg at our school fete you have a stall with some football goal where children can have a go at beating the goal. We also have a 'send the sponge to the face of the person' that us again maned by men mainly (incl our male teacher and a male TA to the delight of the children).
The issue isn't just about 'why aren't men participating? That must be because it's a pain and they can get away with it'. It's also a question of why men aren't encouraged and taken into account when setting up those events.
The answer is both because it's usually women who do the urbanisation and because it has an ways been done like this (change us hard to handle for everyone, men it women)

"no, no one ever helped me, why should I do anything, it's always for women or students these days."

That's depressing, how little people recognise that society has helped them a lot already simply by virtue of an accident of birth (usually something said by white, straight men). I always think of this which someone posted on here and I think is great.

Women feel far more guilted obligated to sign up for this sort of thing than men ever do.

I was thinking about this at work the other day - was trying to get some people to give support to a STEM-related charity thing I was organising. Some of the men did give support, others just said, "no," or "no, no one ever helped me, why should I do anything, it's always for women or students these days." Women either offered to help where they could, or were really apologetic because they were going to be on leave, or really apologetic because they simply had too much work on.

I think that may be my point. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I've had a hard day at work, so wine has been taken.

It doesn't matter if the Important Job is done by a woman, only if by a man.

The things you mention notjustapotforsoup are very often done by women, WOH or not.

I don't think fundraising for schools has much to do with community, I bet almost all the money comes from families with children at each school that give money, time and stuff. Perhaps it's all done because people in general are more willing to do that than simply hand over cash for the school?

Think some schools now ask for "voluntary contributions" of specified amounts of money which seems easier to me, but is controversial.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Or not.

I think we're talking here about zero engagement if it's not done by women. Not tinkering at the edges of whether or not cakes for the pta fair keep society going. However, women not baking cakes for that will always come off worse and not because of anything internal to them.

I agree that there are some things that
are very much personal preference (cake bakes) but stuff like ensuring your kids are mixing out of school or going to the library or getting regular dental check ups are kinda mainstream. Taking the lead on those is not a gender thing, is it? And not confined to working hours in terms of thinking?

So men don't get punished for not taking part but women do? All the more reason not to take part.

(Yes, I understand that not all women feel they can step outside the social strictures.)

There's some merit in that, Sweet. However, in the broader picture of school engagement and interaction with family and the wider community, there is a loss. And I come back to the backlash on women who don't. I don't agree with it, but it is a factor.

Why would you, if you didn't have to, Soup? Most of that kind of thing is tiring, thankless and a bit mindless. No ego boost or other benefit involved. Unless you've been raised to believe that service is its own reward.

TheDowagerCuntess, why don't men step up, do you think?

I've had a bit of a lightbulb moment ...

Our schools here are categorised into 'deciles', and it's a socio-economic calculation directly based on the families in the school community's incomes. It's adjusted regularly.

Decile 10 schools get the least government funding, and decile 1 schools get the most.

The upshot is that the higher decile schools have to fundraise like crazy to get resources for their school.

Guess who this load inevitably falls to... Yes, mothers.

There are constant (and I mean, constant) calls to join the school fundraising committee, to contribute to ad hoc tasks, to dedicate time (and money, of course), and yes, to flipping bake.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but this system impacts, and relies, far more on women than it does on men. Women feel far more guilted obligated to sign up for this sort of thing than men ever do. It's yet another way that leisure time is sucked away from women.

Our school decile system is actually not just a socio-economic issue (high decile schools out-perform low decile schools, at least taking the aggregated view), but it's also a feminist issue.

Reducing wife work for the wife is fabulous. That those things then might not get done can be a bit sad on a societal level.

I don't think so. I think Stepford style immaculate houses are a side effect of not giving women enough to occupy their talents and ambitions, not actually a necessity for society. The basics would still get done.

I also think that after a period of stand off per household the balance would reset in terms of who does what. Very few people want to live in a tip.

DH does his own ironing and present buying, there just seems to be enough if everything else to be another proper part time job. Which appears to have become mine by default.

Actually, I know he's not good at being organised and makes up for it at work by being clever and bring there. It does irritate me that he doesn't try.

Yes, there are a couple a year, I think! The partners are just not interested in clothes and would dress like tramps otherwise. Convenient.

I should say that I'm not talking about glass ceiling in some kind of high powered city sense. I just mean in the sense of being able to take your job (or life as a whole) in a direction you would like, with the family and home stuff being at least on the table as a neutral compromise point, rather than being gender driven.

Reducing wife work for the wife is fabulous. That those things then might not get done can be a bit sad on a societal level. Not to mention that the wife then gets the backlash anyway if there is any criticism to be made on the lack.