Taylor Swift vs Nicki Minaj

Yes, I think that is the situation too.

Agree Awedebumbo.

I think also what may have stuck in the craw of a lot of black women is. A black women speaks about her experiences in the music world and how she feels about her race and sexuality are treated and it becomes a story about the hurt feelings of a white women.

Yes indeed. In fact quite a bit of the media coverage that ensued after the video award discussion proved her point.

Glamour magazine, for example:

Tweet one - : "Taylor Swift shut down Nicki Minaj on Twitter and it was WONDERFUL."
Tweet two - the correction tweet: "Taylor Swift and Nicki Minaj embroiled in Twitter Row"

And she's right that those shots of thin white women with a focus on the arse are seen as sexualised and innocent at the same time, while Minaj's are not, despite being very similar.

I think Inthebox and Cigars are right about the Miley thing, but it goes beyond just Miley is not treated as representative of all white women. When Miley twerks, many white people see her as representing all black women.

I think Minaj was being very specific that it was about how acceptable it was when white women and black women do the exact same thing. See her tweets here, which she made long before this video award discussion:

perezhilton.com/2014-07-25-nicki-minaj-instagram-anaconda-booty-thong-single-art-controversy-response?ph_header=perezhilton#.VbTMzHCkqrU

I think the problem arises when it comes to define an entire group of people. Miley cyrus gets to gyrate on stage in hot pants but no-one claims that all young white women are trailer trash - she's not speaking for white women everywhere, yet Minaj twerks and to defend it people start making references to black women and various historical cultural references. It was mentioned upthread that not every black woman would appreciate or even want Minaj to represent them. I wholly agree with that sentiment.

I fully agree, but you can't ignore the fact that Cyrus twerks (with no cultural background to it whatsoever) and wins an award, whereas Minaj twerks (with all the cultural legitimacy in the world) and is condemned way more than Cyrus ever was. It isn't about Minaj representing black women, it's about Minaj using an aspect of black female cultural heritage and getting vilified while a white woman appropriates this one aspect and is either applauded or gets "aw this poor white girl has been corrupted, how did that happen?" comments.

I have found almonds comments paternalistic, a lot of people are falling over themselves to ignore racism and white supremacy yet seem to have an excellent understanding of misogyny and male entitlement.

I hate all the oversexed MV stuff. But I thought this one had a bit value unlike a lot of it.

I didn't think that. I agree with what almond has said throughout this thread.

I appreciate as a white , middle class liberal who finds NM's music unlistenable anyway I'm not her target audience and I am missing the interpretation others are putting on it but I wonder how many viewers see it as empowering or just salacious?

I think all those claiming that the likes of Rihanna have previously won the award or Beyonce has also been nominated are failing to see a critical issue in the black community. The idolisation of European features. Beyonce's blond weaves and fair skin, Rihanna's fair skin and green eyes. Ciara the same. There have been many documentaries made about this issue. In fact the issue stems in part from rap artists specifically seeking out women with fairer complexions and European features.
I've yet to see a dark skinned female artist reach the lofty heights of the likes of Rihanna or Beyonce. I.e. not just a few successful hits that made it into the charts but real international recognition. Not even the other Destiny Child members managed.

I suppose that deviates from the issue at hand here and it's also worth pointing out that Minaj herself has a very light complexion but wrt the video I take the attitude of each to their own. This is very much Minaj's type of style so in that respect it is not shocking. I think the problem arises when it comes to define an entire group of people. Miley cyrus gets to gyrate on stage in hot pants but no-one claims that all young white women are trailer trash - she's not speaking for white women everywhere, yet Minaj twerks and to defend it people start making references to black women and various historical cultural references. It was mentioned upthread that not every black woman would appreciate or even want Minaj to represent them. I wholly agree with that sentiment.

If I'd been TS, I would have assumed it was about me too. NM was specifically talking about skinny girls being nominated for best video and the only two females in that category are TS and Beyonce.

When TS called her on it. NM said it wasn't about TS but then went on to tweet that she (NM) would go on stage to collect her best video award anyway (despite not being nominated in that category). That was an obvious reference to when Kanye crashed TS' previous win. It was that tweet that prompted TS to tell NM she was welcome on any stage with her. The Guardian, rather disingenuously, didn't mention NM's tweet about going on stage to collect the best video award and seemed to imply TS just randomly invited NM up on stage.

NM has now presented the entire issue as one about race so TS (incredibly sensibly) has backed off.

YY there are issues with race in the music industry. YY there are massive issues about cultural appropriation. That doesn't necessarily mean that this spat was anything other than NM taking a pop at TS. And I can't see that as a feminist stance. NM could easily have tweeted about the white men deciding who to shortlist or about the white male artists who are also nominated for best video. Instead, she made it about women and body shape.

oh, buzzfeed! Fgs leave Taylor alone now. www.buzzfeed.com/tracyclayton/get-your-isms-together#.qve186RRO

Agree.

I wouldn't compare them either.

I think the whole twitter thing was because TS jumped in assuming it was about her.

I don't know what I particularly feel about Nicki Minaj. I don't think that's the point. There may be all manner of important points she is making in a hyper sexualised video. There are probably all manner of points being made in the Rocky Horror Picture Show, but I wouldn't show it to a seven year old. Seven is probably the average age of a Taylor Swift fan.

All that happened is that I read the Guardian article that compared the Minaj and Swift videos. I think that Anaconda video is hypersexualised and objectifying to a degree that the Swift video is not. You know, because of stuff in that video like Minaj in an apron and some tights squirting whipped cream on her breasts.

Minaj has never made any comparison between herself and Taylor Swift. In fact, she clearly stated she was not comparing herself to Swift. The comparison has been made by a. Taylor Swift (for which she apologised), b. the Guardian and c. various internet social justice types.

I think I am not following you almond... I think your point is that the sexual objectification of women is horrible and NM plays into that and therefore loses any sympathy from you.

I think the racism she is kicking back against is even worse, so I give her a pass. Someone just trying to make money off of objectifying themself with no point to make, and I do think NM was making a point, I wouldn't have any sympathy for either.

I'm not asking anything of NM!

I don't think her video is equivalent, in terms of the degree of sexualisation and objectification in it, to the Taylor Swift video it was compared to in the Guardian. I think the Guardian is being ridiculous. That comparison has been a large part of the discussion on this thread - hence the title!

NM has made it clear she wasn't comparing herself to Taylor Swift. I suspect she may be comparing herself to Miley Cyrus, who is presenting the award NM has not been nominated for, despite Cyrus presenting herself in a hypersexualised way and not being anywhere near as talented.

It is part of traditional racism to portray certain groups of women as simultaneously hypersexualised and undesirable.

Agree.
Believe NM would agree.

Still think you are asking too much of one woman.

I only see MV now and then at the gym. I don't know who half the people are, but a lot of blond women seem to be doing the same stuff.

It wasn't typical. It was hyper sexualised. That is common for videos of black performers. There's a report on the hyper sexualisation of black women and how that perpetuates racist stereotypes of black women's sexuality here:

www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/data/files/Pornographic_Performances_FINAL_Aug_2014.pdf

It is supported by a black feminist organisation.

It is part of traditional racism to portray certain groups of women as simultaneously hypersexualised and undesirable.

I think NM was performing standard pop music "sexy." It wasn't particularly original or unique. I don't think her purpose was to rise above the whole genre as some sort of shining light, but to show that a typical black body shape is worthy of being seen as drop dead sexy.

She has a black wrapper in the background singing his ode to "big butts."
She has a clip of a young white woman being snide about big butts.
She has her own song.
She has a jungle context which is a play on the "exotic" role black women were caste into, and is a definite nod to racism in America (makes you think of the old Tarzan movies from the 1930s.)

There is so much going on, and it all adds up to a point view. To dismiss her out of hand because she was enacted typical MV memes seems to be missing the point.

I hate all the oversexed MV stuff. But I thought this one had a bit value unlike a lot of it.

If someone films themselves crawling across the floor on their hands and knees towards a man, I don't think the symbolism of that act is 'woman.'

I can completely see the points being made about the silencing of experience and the expression of feminism by women of colour and that they are important, very relevant arguments. Reclaiming sexuality and explicit expression of same in all media - whether that be music, film, tv shows or books - isn't something to be stifled or that will necessarily be viewed as acceptable. It shouldn't be made to be when the status quo is fixated on male sexuality and desire. I don't think twerking is disgusting, nor does being comfortable with being an explicitly sexual woman make you a whore. Fgs.

The issue I have is I feel that about the wider context - dancehall for example - but I struggle to understand the specific view of NM as expressing Black Feminism when she's making money from songs like 'You a stupid hoe' and 'shakin' it 4 daddy' - there is so much objectification and frequent sentiments like 'I eat bitches', not exactly pro woman. I see a lot about her as a desirable, sexual woman but as the desirable woman, denigrating other women and placing value on getting the man above any other sentiment. A lot of alpha bitching and playing into female stereotypes.
I can't speak for other women, but being told I'm a stupid hoe and didn't get the prize because I didn't shake it enough for daddy doesn't really make me feel I'm engaging in a message of feminism.
I'm not trying to say any other way but mine is wrong, I try to learn as much as I can, I change my mind, I'm going to get Ain't I a woman and read more but in this specific instance I don't understand how what she's selling is feminist rather than sex. I can agree with Fauch's points in isolation but I can't marry them with the wider context of her work and agree.
I'm interested in the views of people more familiar with her and black feminists because I don't know if I'm just interpreting it wildly differently from their pov or just showing myself deeply ignorant - probable!
As an aside it's Sir Mix-a-lot, not MC Hammer. Mc Hammer is he of the harem pants that you can't touch.

DadWasHere you don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you read W E Du Bois who explores the make up of African American families and why there is above average number of single parent households.

Also read this its a quick summation of desirability politics.

mediadiversified.org/2013/11/05/who-stole-all-the-black-women-from-britain/

Also your whole to be brutally honest and Controversial long essay inbound (dons steel hat) to preface bullshit theories which have been thoroughly debunked is pathetic.

Controversial long essay inbound (dons steel hat)

The point is that black women in America have been demeaned for the last 400 years. Their bodies are seen as not pretty; they aren't desirable; they are not properly femine. In the worst of all possible worlds, where women's only asset/power is their looks/erotic capital, black women were deniedeven this..

What can I say grey, yes, scientific study and inter-racial marriage statistics comparing the desirability of the opposite sex are both in agreement. Between white, asian and black- its black women at the bottom of their gender and asian men at the bottom of theirs. At the other end, highest desirability, black men are above white men and asian women are above white women. So, while marriage does still stick mostly within racial groups, black men marry out of their group well over twice as much as black women, asian women marry out of theirs more than three times as much as asian men. Interesting to speculate why that all is but its undeniably true.

But I think the problem for black women in the US is rooted in entrenched poverty, not desirability. The social structure for african-americans was under pressure back in 1965 when 25% of african-american births were to single mothers. Now its climbed to 75%, its a monumental social catastrophe.

Men can do two things, they can get a woman pregnant and abandon her in the role as care giver and they can, by virtue of physical strength and less tangible connection to offspring, walk/work out of poverty and leave the woman behind. In that respect black american women have some kinship with women from eastern Europe after the collapse of the USSR, where former soviet states experienced young male flight to western nations. My point is that what ultimately caused those women from eastern Europe to be abandoned by their own men was not their desirability, it was their poverty both genders found themselves in.

If I was to be utterly brutal about it, and I will probably get slammed to hell for writing it this way, I would say that while raising self esteem via feeling more desirable may make a woman feel better, in the short term, it need not be a road up where she is better valued, it can as easily and possibly even more commonly be a path to hell leaving her pregnant and abandoned.