Drag queens banned from Pride event "because they may offend transgender people"

cis-drag... erm...born on the side of drag? Born with the alignment of drag identity with sexual assignment. Physical and mental sex being drag.

Well, if that doesn't explain it, I don't know what will

Did we ever find out what "cis-drag" was? I'm still confuse over that (and also hate the term cis women - I know why it's there and understand it but it's really unnecessary, surely)

Oh but how I hate that term.

cis women is a fabrication that must not be foisted on women without a fight, rhetorical, literary, socially and otherwise.

I find myself singing 2 songs, loudly and repetitively, almost aggressively, but fortunately in my head

I Am What I Am
I'm Every Woman

And growling at regular intervals!

It's part of the move to stop distinguishing between women and transwomen to show acceptance of transwomen as women. There is apparently no need to separate misogyny from the discrimination or hatred experienced by MTTs unless of course we're talking about the extra oppression faced by transwomen. Based in the current direction of travel we will soon have two categories - women and the subcategory "cis women" who perpetuate misogyny (against MTTs) but do not suffer it.

Or does the word misogyny now include the hatred trans women face, even though it's different in shape and form from the hatred women face?

Which will cause more problems for people trying to help women. And what about trans men, will this be used to "prove" that misandry is a "thing"?

More Fucking about with language to the detriment of women.

Yes it is good.

Why Is the statement going on about misogyny though? Shouldn't that be trans misogyny? Because the feelings of women, were never anything to do with the reason for the decision.

Good outcome.

Good.

They fucked up, they apologised, everyone moves on.

The sex class: woman is still parodied in a myriad unhelpful ways, but, as always, women's feelings are worth zip in the face of the feelings of men and TW. I know there are a large number of women who are starting to question why LGBT groups even bother having the L there at all.

freeprideglasgow.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/free-pride-to-welcome-drag-performers/

"I just find that in practice, it usually is just misogynistic bollocks."

Fair point. Why isn't the world more like my theories! -stamps foot and wails-

I agree in theory Shaska.

I jsut find that in practice, it usually is just misogynistic bollocks.

I don't have much of an opinion on Drag or those who use it. It doesn't offend me, because it is often so parodic and farcical however someone like Bruce Jenner offends me for saying that woman = glamorous underwear shots.

I think if I were trans I would be FAR more offended by Jenner than by someone clearly taking the piss - he or she is trying to get taken seriously while Drag is the opposite of that.

And I refuse to take him/her seriously.

Sorry shaska.

Agree completely shashka. Very well put.

"Drag is usually parody of women, not men transgressing gender norms, isn't it?"

For me, drag is about parodying the performative nature of femininity. And the idea of 'these are the tropes, and here I am taking them to the maximal degree, and that should make me The Most Womanly Woman - and yet I am still a man. IME drag is not about 'passing', in any way - it's an alternate state, and a sort of surreal/comic one. I find it interesting - I don't doubt that some drag performers, as many other entertainers do, use it as a platform for misogynist ideas, but I don't think that drag itself is offensive to women.

But actually, thinking this through - what drag is in my experience, which is ALL about the glitz and tropes, a lot of which is used as evidence for a desire to be female, I can see why the trans community finds it troublesome. Because of that statement, of 'look, here I am, in ALL the trappings, to a ridiculous degree... and here I am, still, a man, and isn't gender just a grand joke.'

I'm really not keen on pantomime dames either. But then I can't stand panto full stop.

Rugger bugger types dressing up as parodies of women I'm not at all keen on, rubbish wigs and fake titties don't make me guffaw. Men going out in dresses for a laugh no problem though.

Men transgressing gender norms I quite enjoy, it's interesting. I wonder how the activist trans community perceives people like Eddie Izzard.

Am so glad it's clarified in my mind the difference between

drag
panto dames
parodies of women (rugger buggers etc.)
men transgressing gender norms (Eddie Izzard, Boy George etc.)

Drag is usually parody of women, not men transgressing gender norms, isn't it?

Slightly off topic but sometimes judith butler is so clever she is stupid.

Of course there is a difference between women complying with femininity and men performing it.

(Even if you describe women complying with femininity as performative.)

I agree with flora (again)

Many drag acts I have seen are parodies of women, not just dressing in women's clothes.

Eddie izzard doesn't parody. Once when asked why he was wearing women's clothes he replied "these aren't women's clothes, they're mine, I bought them".

As a completely irrelevant aside, I once danced with Lilly savage in the basement of trinity college Dublin at a LBG event that I had helped organise. And I met senitor Norris.

Wish clothes were more neutral- though have always wondered why trans women in the public eye never want to wear jeans, mum boots, a fleece and a sensible handbag!

I suppose for the same reason I don't. It doesn't appeal to me.

I've never seen a drag act except Taylor Mac twice , once at The Edinburgh fringe and once in New York. He is a playwright really and his shows are political in nature. He can be very funny but doesn't tell jokes.

Beyond that I don't really get the appeal of drag as entertainment, but then plenty of other entertainments leave me cold too. I don't find drag queens offensive, I'm just not interested.

So far as the rugby club on a charity run and the like I really don't see that as offensive. The joke is meant to be on them , being how badly they fail to look like women.

I've seen Clive Rowe as the dame several times. I don't think that's a drag act though. A pantomime dame is a different thing.

Also, drag acts on TV and in children's panto are inevitably going to tone it down for the audience.

Every time I've seen rugby types dressed "as women" they wear huge fake breasts and wigs which means they are not just men transgressing gender norms in clothing as men but are presenting as caricatures of women.

People who've never seen a funny inoffensive drag act should really see Clive Rowe as the Dame in the Hackney Empire Panto. God he's funny, and that singing voice! My life's regret is that I missed Sir Ian McKellan as Widow Twanky. But I'm not doubting there's a lot of actually misogynist drag out there.

I think the answer to the NUS drag ban was that you could wear whatever you wanted as long as it wasn't with comic intent. So the rugby club needed to invest in a job lot of discreet badges saying "I am wearing this tutu and feather boa purely to indulge my own personal sexual fetish, please don't stare".

FWIW I once saw a bunch of paratroopers on a night out and they were dressed in tiny low cut skin tight lycra dresses. They all had very muscular physiques and the dresses were very revealing, it was quite a sight to behold. At that moment I realised just how different men's and women's "standard" attire is in terms of revealingness - a man dressed up in the equivalent of that dress wouldn't have anywhere near so much "on show" - on these men you could see everything.

That's kind of by the by but just made me remember it.

I notice the difference in "display" on male and female clothes all the time now and have done for years - and which situations it is marked and which it is less so. you can't un-notice this stuff!

I agree with Manatee.

I think the rugby club types who love to dress as women "for a laugh" are the ones heading in the right direction though- wear a skirt for fun, because you like it- who cares if you are biologically male or female underneath?

Agree with drag queens performing femininity whilst being male clashes with trans ideas of gender as innate, though do hate how some drag artistes belittle women, though ime this is a minority.

Wish clothes were more neutral- though have always wondered why trans women in the public eye never want to wear jeans, mum boots, a fleece and a sensible handbag!

YY to sum up.

If drag acts are taking the piss out of anyone, it's women.
And yet it's only when some trans people complain (that that joke makes them feel uncomfortable, even though they aren't the target) that people say oh SHIT you can't do that it's outrageously offensive.

Also WTF is cis-drag?
What would trans-drag be then and is that OK?