sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

TBH the way women "invite" sexual partners is generally by looking at them in the eye, and smiling. And responding positively when they engage in conversation with them. Leaning in, touching their arm, that sort of thing. Some more forward women might even approach a man they like the look of if they've had a bit -of dutch courage--.

The clothes are irrelevant to this process also.

The more I think about it the more I think the whole converse argument is a load of flimsy bollocks.

I'm trying to think of a joke about flimsiness and bollocks now and can't

Got my italics in the wrong place there on post one from last. Never mind!

You want to get that ankle covered there technological!

Did you slide even part-way down the fence on either side yet?

Technological and I think every woman of course can make that call for herself.

It's when people make value judgements about other people based on their attire that the problems come. And when people make excuses for men who behave badly / illegally towards females by imbuing harmless pieces of clothing with the ability to inflame otherwise calm law-abiding men. And when they imagine that a young girl has the same thought processes as an adult woman who is looking for (male) sexual partners AND has chosen to dress in a certain way to reflect that. And let's face it, how many of these women even are there, apart from in popular male fantasy? Most women who go out in skimpy clothes on a Friday night do so because that is the "look" in their area, for their age group, on a Friday night. I would further hazard that you'd be hard pressed to find many women who put on clothes with the intent of signalling "I am up for street harassment, groping and sex with anyone who fancies a bit". I mean, again, this is a male fantasy, not reality.

No one's seeing my knickers, I'm covered from top to toe in layers and layers of chintz

Of course then they might see one of the petticoats

I want normal decent people to stop pretending that female clothing is causing men to be lecherous and commit sexual assault

My eh is from a culture where men do wear 'skirts'. We live in an area where men wear 'skirts'

pearpotter yes there's an interesting and important point there I think that as fashions change clothes which were once shocking are now mainstream and don't attract any comment (generally - dickhead blokes aside who will comment whatever is going on!).

So actually pushing the boundaries frees women and girls up in terms of the attire, not the reverse. For instance, look at swimming costumes and tennis outfits in Victorian / earlier days. For women (and for men to a lesser extent with the swimwear) the clothing that they had to wear in order to meet prevailing ideas around modesty meant they were extremely uncomfortable, the garb was not fit for purpose. The fact that women can now wear clothes for tennis they can move in and swimwear they can swim in, is positive. Yes the press and some parts of society will sexualise some of the women doing this / the attire can be used in pictures that are meant to be sexually provocative. But given that all of those negatives will happen whatever women wear, the moral anxiety about an ankle showing or a bit of hair showing through a veil, that wouldn't stop. So we are left with positives, aren't we?

And again I would say, even the shorts linked earlier - I have seen some pics of pop stars in clothes that reference bondage. But still, if a 10 yo girl (or boy!) wears a pair of shorts like that to a disco, any sane, normal person will think "there is a child wearing a fashion item" and some will think "I'm not very keen on that look but hey kids will be kids and wearing stuff their parents don't approve of is as old as the hills" and anyone who genuinely thinks "aha that 10yo is indicating their desire to find a partner for some hardcore BDSM sex tonight" I would think there was something very seriously wrong with them.

I think you're saying that you want the cultural signals of clothing to change. That's the better long-term approach (though you could include getting rid of the idea of skirts as female-only attire and gettng your son to wear them too imo) - removing the idea that clothing gives signals leaves the shitty behaviour in the open for all to see. But I'm looking at those cultural values that exist right now and saying 'no'. While being aware that some men still believe they have sexual rights over women regardless of whatever signals they're putting out.

My dd, at age 10, is 5'7" with size 7 feet. She is a size 8/10. She doesn't wear clothes which 'copy adult clothes'. She wears adult clothes. If she wore kids clothes, they would be even shorter!

What makes a skirt look nice? Why does it have to match shoes? I have no flipping clue tbh! it's not my bag, I find clothes and fashion fairly tedious. But some people really enjoy it

No no don't push her off the fence! She might land on the wrong side! And worse, someone might see her knickers!

She won't have skirts in her wardrobe until she understands sexual empowerment??

Some men will 'behave inappropriately' whatever you wear or even if they can't see you, yes (I said upthread I used to get sexual harassment over the phone).

Nevertheless clothes copying adult ones designed to be sexually appealing are really not appropriate if you don't want to look sexually appealing. The aesthetics of clothes are not in a vacuum. Aesthetics are not universal, they are culturally determined. Why do you think a particular skirt is nice? Why are skirts nice? Why is it necessary that they look 'nice' with shoes, men aren't that bothered, and what does that mean anyway. Why do those shoes look 'nice'? (don't get me started on the impracticality and stupidity of women's and girl's gendered shoe designs )

I don't imagine that she does think it is 'sexually empowering'= I imagine she will just be liking the pattern and thinks it goes nice with her jacket and shoes

I was wolf-whistled at age 13 onwards wearing school uniform, clumpy shoes and a long coat. So, newsflash, people will behave inappropriately towards young girls and women whatever they wear.

I come down on the side of being more liberal in what DDs wear. I find it very weird and uncomfortable when people say young girls look "slutty". It says far more about the individual, and when it is a woman saying it it demonstrates a lot of self-loathing.

(if she's too young to be thinking like that, they simply won't be in her wardrobe)

Frankly I'd rather not have her in skirts at all, not until boys start wearing them too. There's a reason why they're viewed as female-only attire - why have that separation anyway?

But if she insists I'd say nothing higher than above the knee. For as long as I have any influence in such matters. I'd ask her why exactly she feels it's sexually empowering to wear it, and if she doesn't think that men will also pick up on that.

breakdown what length of skirt will she be allowed? To the floor? Mid calf? Knee? Above knee? Mid thigh? What about her top half? Full sleeves? Short sleeves? Vests? Spaghetti straps? No straps? At what specific point does a girl signal that she Is a sex object?it would be useful to know, huh?

(try to think a bit more I mean).

Oh well. I liked it. I'll go try something else.

My daughter has amazing legs, very long and to bed, great skin. When she wears a short skirt is doesn't look cheap, trampy or slurry. She looks young, healthy, strong, athletic and beautiful.

She is not a sexual object. She is 10

I have never been a skirt wearer, let alone a short skirt. I live in jeans/trousers/leggings. All my life I've been wolf- whistled, propositioned, groped, I've been rape once and been masturbated on by strangers twice

Im not an exception to the norm. That is the norm.

Blimey this is all getting vitriolic. I think you are all getting entrenched into extreme positions.

I'm sticking with my fence. Clothes themselves do not at root cause sexual harassment, men engaging in it cause sexual harassment and what girls happen to be wearing when men let loose is essentially irrelevant - as Whirlpool correctly says men feel entitled to judge women and girls on appearance all the time and to vocalise their judgements, occasionally to act on them, whatever they are wearing.

Sexual harassment is not about sexual desire, it is about the power men feel they have over women and their need to express it.

All abusers of any kind deny responsibility for their actions, but that does not stop them actually having any. Who else can stop a bloke verbally throwing his shit around like a monkey but the bloke himself?

Nevertheless we are all part of a society, and the gender divide goes deep. Clothes are an expression of our society. Revealing clothes are an expression, not of individual women's sexuality, but of a culture which thinks women's only value is appearance and sexual availability for men. Wearing those clothes does send out the signal that one is willing to be seen that way. So for many men who are not all that bad, just raised in the same culture, this is a signal that one is available for and will appreciate sexual attention.

The worse men will pursue regardless, in fact even worse ones will pursue specifically. Men are not a homogenous group any more than women are.

And so I will not be encouraging my dd to wear skimpy clothing because I do not want her playing this game and signalling her willingness to be treated as a sexual object. But I will also not be telling her that in this way she will stop being viewed as a sexual object. And I will not be telling her that her being viewed as a sexual object is in any way her fault. My ds will be encouraged to always view women and girls as people with value in their own right, not as dirty tissues for him to blow his dick into (tips on how to achieve that are always appreciated).

It is male behaviour that needs to change the most, but all of society needs an overhaul.

This is quite a comfy fence, anyone want to join me?

You've given me lots to think about whirlpool
Because funnily enough I was thinking of India and Turkey when I posted.
Case 1 Turkey me as a 20 year old annoyed by clicking sounds from every bloody man I walked past. Longer skirts, eyes down and it stopped. This didn't work in Italy or Spain btw where I found even slowing down, regardless of what I wore got attention.
Case 2 fast forward 25 years to India with 11/12 year old daughters. They really hated crowds regardless of what they were wearing unless they were literally flanked by parents. This was a few years back and there wasn't the awareness of quite how dangerous it is to be a young woman in India.
My daughters have also commented that they are much more uncomfortable in different areas of London.
I said waaaay up thread that I didn't stop my daughters wearing short skirts to school as I felt broad daylight with friends was a good place to gauge how men do react to different dress.
I think it's power. Men whistle less from scaffolding because they are now likely to get a humiliating riposte in front if their peers. And they do leer at school girls because a 12 year old is less likely to have the confidence to confront them. School uniform might just be a symbol of powerlessness.
Can I just reiterate that every comment I've made on this thread is concerning verbal harassment not assault and perceived messages, not intent by the wearer.

I think what I was trying to say is, why aren't we teaching men and boys that short skirts, crop tops etc are not signals to be read, they are just clothes and don't indicate consent, wanting to be cat called, or wanting to be groped. Men couldn't say they misread the short skirt, if they learnt at a young age that a short skirt isn't something to be read.